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https://www.mlrc.ca/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl General >> Rally >> SCCA announces new rally program https://www.mlrc.ca/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1102953886 Message started by Schwabe on 12/13/4 at 11:04:46 |
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Title: SCCA announces new rally program Post by Schwabe on 12/13/4 at 11:04:46 SCCA announces new rally program A focus on closed course events [11/12/04 - 02:47] Sports Car Club of America, Inc. announced today (Friday) at the Performance Racing Industry show a new Closed Course Rally Program and Rally Department, combining elements of its former stage rally programs with elements of autocross and road racing. “SCCA remains focused on providing a new direction for the future of the sport of rally,” SCCA President and CEO Steve Johnson said. “Although the environment for traditional stage rally is changing dramatically throughout North America, SCCA is committed to making rally-type competition more accessible for spectators and participants alike.” “Part of SCCA's heritage has been its rally programs, in non-speed events such as Time Speed Distance RoadRallies, as well as closed course RallyCrosses and stage-based high-speed Performance Stage Rallies,” the five-page document detailing the program says. “As with most programs that span decades, development and adaptation is required to remain relevant with the times. In 2004, an important part of rally met a crossroads, resulting in the cancellation of one type of program, and now the creation of another. “To better serve its members and grow the sport of rally in the United States, SCCA has crafted an all-new program to bring many of the elements making stage rally exciting together with elements of its other forms of competition. Most importantly, it is structured to address many of the insurance and liability concerns from the previous program. “Sports Car Club of America is pleased to introduce its all-new Closed Course Rally program. Overseen by the SCCA Rally Department, the objective of the closed course rally program is to provide new membership activities that blend the elements of SCCA's traditional circuit programs (Solo and Race) with the key features of performance rally.” Closed Course Rally features three distinct programs, including the existing RallyCross competitions, a revised RallySprint program and a new CircuitRally program. The three programs are targeted at a number of participants, including recreational rallyists in street cars, hobby rallyists in multi-purpose cars (street and rally), sportsman rallyists in fully-prepared rally cars and professional and semi-professional rallyists in fully-prepared rally cars. Beginning in 2005, RallyCross, which is an off-road Solo (autocross), will hold approximately 125 events nationwide, with a focus on consistent operations, procedures and rules. RallySprint combines elements of performance rally with the Performance Driving Clinic program and Club Racing. Events will be held on circuits in a primarily off-road setting. Events can either be of the lapping format, where participants navigate their cars on the course with others, or single-car events similar to hill climbs depending on the venue. Speeds will be limited in these events, as will the passing areas for a multi-car format to limit the risk of car-to-car incidents. Competition is based on fastest times turned by drivers around the course. There will be approximately 10 Regional RallySprint in 2005, expanding to 50 events by 2007. CircuitRally is new to SCCA, combining road racing and performance rally. CircuitRally events will be held at existing motorsports facilities and feature wheel-to-wheel heat-based sprint races on mostly non-paved surfaces. Presently, there are several organizations holding similar events with motorcycles, ATVs and trucks. These organizations have thrived since adopting a controlled environment model as opposed to that of a wilderness adventure. CircuitRally fills a need for events featuring automobiles. CircuitRally events will largely fill the void left by the cancellation of the SCCA ProRally Championship, as it is geared toward spectators and has a television-friendly format. There will be two CircuitRally events in 2004, expanding to 30 National events by 2007. With the announcement of the Closed Course Rally program, SCCA also announced the restructuring of its Performance Rally department. Now simply called “Rally,” the department, headed by Sue Robinson, will also include RoadRally, which was previously managed by SCCA's Solo department. Press release SCCA |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by John_Vanos on 12/13/4 at 11:26:52 woah, thats not rally at all. I wouldnt be opposed to competing in it, but it just is NOT the same.... |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by English on 12/15/4 at 13:41:41 I am with John, i dont think that it is nearly the same. A rally is a race against time and nature, if you go off course, you DNF. Not around in circle only turning left 4 times, this is not NASCAR!! James |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by AnthonyT on 12/15/4 at 18:34:15 In my mind, rally's defining feature is that the route is theoretically never the same twice. Other races use real cars. The goal of most races is to go fast. It's the ever differing route which makes the sport of Rally unique within the racing world. I have nothing against racing on a predetermined course. It's enjoyed by many and rightfully so, it was not however what got me interested in racing. Rally was the first race type event in which I really wanted to take part. I wonder if this U.S. format change has something to do with wanting a more television friendly event. Is their main goal increased sponsorship and ad sales etc...? This type of commercialization is common in many areas of sport. Would this change benefit the Canadian Rally Championship by attracting more U.S. competitors who prefer the challenges offered by rallying to that of circuit racing? Who knows what the futur holds |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by AnthonyT on 12/15/4 at 18:37:19 Oops, I reread the original post... It states the changes were made to address insurance concerns... Figures! CARS, SCCA or FIA should set up an insurance company of it's own! |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by nhibbert on 12/15/4 at 20:08:35 What ever happened to: Real Cars, Real Roads, Real Fast? |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by Zweistein on 12/15/4 at 21:34:17 I'm going to sound culturally insensitive, but after seeing the extremelly dissapointing ROC this Sunday, I hope our Rally doesn't get "Americanized" :'( They like their cars going in purty little circles for benefits of audience that wants hotdogs while they sit & watch... that's fine. I like a bit more wilderness to my automotorsport :-/ |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by luv2drift on 12/16/4 at 10:52:30 I've already mentioned this in the past, but it's nice to see others begin to see it. It's not always about insurance (which I'm sure has a big part of it), but it's becoming more about advertising to centralized viewing areas, hotdog sales, and V.I.P. ticket sales. >:( It's sad where the sport has went in the SCCA and how it may trickle up north. :'( The recent 'Pines was a first in person event for a friend (who is a rally fan) of mine and came back well, not impressed. From how it used to be, go figure... I'm going to have to take him to a regional, to spark interest in viewing in person again! Organizers should stop trying to turn these events so commerical. In trying to please everyone, who will ultimately be happiest, sponsors? Sure it costs money to rally, didn't it always? Enthusiasts used to compete for the love of the sport. If that 's not enough now for some, they should look to a different racing series, maybe oval-track? |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by John_Vanos on 12/16/4 at 12:06:03 You are confusing the two topics. They are one in the same. Read the CARS safety plan first off to understand what is now required of rallies. All the organizers are doing is trying to make your spectating experience a better one. Hotdog stands or not spectators are stuch there, so why not have some food and drink to go with it? Its a fact of rally now, sorry. John |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by DaveC on 12/16/4 at 12:30:05 luv2drift wrote on 12/16/4 at 10:52:30:
I would be interested in getting some feedback about what you and your friend didn't like. I have been involved with setting up the spactator points at Tall Pines for the last 4 years and would like the feedback. If it was the restriction of spectating points, like John said, get used to it. Even the regionals have to follow the CARS safety plan. Last year at Black Bear, there was only two locations to view from and you had to walk into both of them. It is "all about the insurance". Look at what happened in the U.S. Why? More than anything, I am willing to bet, is because two spectators died. Drivers, co-drivers and active participants accept the risk, but even with that their relatives may sue. However, the death of spectators is a whole different issue and I believe a significant factor in the SCCA's decision to get out of Rally and into closed course side-by-side racing. Edit: In respect of the use of the word "Rally", you will notice that I did not use it in reference to the closed course racing described above. |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by Zweistein on 12/16/4 at 14:10:40 I guess this is my newbiness speaking; but are these organizations similar in basic concept to how I see RSO/CARS, i.e. a hierarchical orientation of participants (volunteers, crews, drivers, etc - members), as opposed to commercial entities? Would/how can these changes happen without support from "the masses"? edit: dam; re-read the announcement and want to cry at the ludicrous spin & silliness. There's something majestic about a wilderness rally that few other sports can approach. It's really, I firmly believe, an ultimate test of man & machine, and the whole point is that it is NOT some tightly controlled, laboratory format. The purity cannot possibly remain in the events they are describing. If they want to hold them, more power to them, but they should not taint the word "rally" thusly. (anybody holding a trademark on the word rally?;)) |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by AlanO on 12/16/4 at 15:29:35 luv2drift wrote on 12/16/4 at 10:52:30:
Nobody is forcing you to buy into the VIP program, but the fact that it has sold out the last two years suggests that we are doing something right. Quote:
It's easy to say "Sure it costs money to rally, didn't it always?" But I've seen first-hand what it costs to rally and put on a rally, and the costs are perennially rising. The situation will be even more serious next year because the national events are going to have to deal with the loss of a significant amount of RDG/Subaru sponsorship money. We could hike the entry fees (again), which could price a lot of teams out of the sport. Or we can chase sponsors, who like and expect the event to put on more of a show when there aren't any cars going by. As far as expenses are concerned, there isn't a whole lot of fat to trim. Nobody is getting rich from this sport. What do you suggest we do? And as far as "Enthusiasts used to compete for the love of the sport", well, that's just insulting. Just ask any of the big teams and drivers how much they spend out of their own pockets "for the love of the sport". They might even be too embarrassed to tell you the real amount. I have an idea of what a Production-class team will spend in an average year, and I can tell you that an Open-class team spends exponentially more. The old days are gone for good. They were great, but the world has changed, and we have to adapt. |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by luv2drift on 12/16/4 at 17:05:02 Dave Cotie wrote on 12/16/4 at 12:30:05:
Although he did mention some good spectator viewing areas, he did mention the commercialism feel of it and the 'controlling'/restrictions. Dave Cotie wrote on 12/16/4 at 12:30:05:
They got the to regionals too? Nooooo! Dave Cotie wrote on 12/16/4 at 12:30:05:
Of course it is. It's terrible what happened, but God forbid anybody be responsible for their own actions. Until we lose this 'someone must pay' attitude, insurance will continue to pay out then raise coverage costs and restrictions. Sorry, I tend to jump topic to topic when I'm passionate about something! |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by Zweistein on 12/16/4 at 20:35:19 hm, must've felt different from the volunteer side, but Tall Pines felt *sooo* non-commercial - especially the night stages! If anything, there was a feeling of raw chaos and excitement during the night... far contrasting the "seat 32-D, section 7, row H" feeling of the closed/stadium stages :( |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by DaveC on 12/16/4 at 21:11:01 luv2drift wrote on 12/16/4 at 17:05:02:
Of course the regionals have been affected, they are run under CARS Safety plans too. You're not going to find VIP areas and such, but the spectator point restrictions and safety requirements are the same. Unfortunately that is not the legal climate in North America. I am all for personal responsibility, but that is just not reality and the average Joe doesn't really want it that way. Car accidents - they are not accidents, most of them are as predictable as the sun rising and falling. No one has openly discussed the accidents in the U.S., so we have not had the opportunity to learn from them. This is probably as a result of lawsuits. We don't know if the spectators were in a bad spot, or the car landed funny or what and probably will never know. We are "controlling" because we have to be. As for the "commercialism", some like it. Like Alan said, the VIP stuff has sold out 2 years in a row, and well before the rally too. If you're buddy wants to avoid some of this, get a HAM License and volunteer. You won't believe some of the out of the way spots you will get to! ;D Sometimes you're lucky if you get to eat (only if you bring your own lunch). |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by Alex Korovkine on 12/17/4 at 10:06:26 Dave Cotie wrote on 12/16/4 at 21:11:01:
Dave, I don't remember what thread exactly it was, but it's somewhere on SpecialStage forum. Try to look through SS archive and you will probably find it. So far I can remember, those two guys WASN'T some kind of drunken punks hiding in a wood. They were RALLY guys. And they stand in a safe spot (from their point of view) with good run-away path. They stand at landing area after straight jump. So this accident was predictable with relatively low probability. It's just a kind of Murphy rule: if something bad can happen - it will happen for sure. Any ways....I don't care what SCCA created in their attempt to persuade rally folks to pay their membership fee, but please take out word rally from its name. >:( |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by DaveC on 12/17/4 at 11:06:00 Alex Korovkine wrote on 12/17/4 at 10:06:26:
Yes Alex, thanks for pointing that out. I did know that and was thinking of including it in my note, but missed it. These guys were apparantly experienced competitors, volunteers and spectators. They knew what they were doing, yet found themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time. |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by Jeannie on 12/17/4 at 11:53:12 I didn't realize they were workers. Kind of makes you think . . . Jeannie |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by nhibbert on 12/17/4 at 12:19:45 It all boils down to money. A performance rally is not a 100% controlled situation, so no one can guarantee that a spectator or innocent bystander won't get hurt. That means insurance rates are going to be high, and that means rally organizers are going to need to raise more money to break even at an event. SCCA apparently decided that the costs (insurance and security) would soon outweigh their potential income (sponsorship, media revenues, entry fees and possibly spectator fees). So they got out if the game. Their new format creates a controlled environment for spectators as no one can unknowingly walk out of the woods onto the course, so insurance rates will be lower; and they can generate more revenue because the format is spectator and media friendly. They can broadcast the whole event (every rollover and collision) with a small number of cameras and the spectators can see all or most of the track. Spectators also see the cars pass numerous times. The organizers can charge all spectators because there is no way to seek into unofficial viewing areas, as there is with most rallies. I suspect that if real performance rallying is to continue in North America it will have to eventually move to more remote locations or to locations were we can control the entire course. |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by DaveC on 12/17/4 at 13:23:09 Jeannie VE3JNE wrote on 12/17/4 at 11:53:12:
They were not working that rally, but they were apparantly experienced "rally people". |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by LastDitchRacing on 12/17/4 at 13:44:03 After the two spectators were killed at Ski Sawmill, and then the Lovell and Freeman accident, it was a big issue. A co-driver had been killed at Ski Sawmill just a year or two before. The Lovell/Freeman accident was a real hard one(both personally and publicity wise) for the sport to sustain. They were great guys that are sorely missed, but the most difficult part for me is that they were two of the most professional crew in a factory built and serviced equipment. When that accident happened, it sent a shudder through all crews around the world. It seems that we could always talk away other accidents and come up with a plausible reason, but with their accident we all knew it can happen to any of us at any time. :-( The nature of rallying in ths US is that it's not only hard to insure now, but it's very difficult to market. You need a creative marketing firm(which I think Rally America now has), quality events with all the other quality issues to go with them(quality competitors, workers, fans etc.). Most Americans aren't active fans like the Canadians. They'd rather see the satellite feed than go out to the stage and watch. The sport of rally will never cease to exist, but there are things that we can do to make the sport safer and more marketable at the same time. As a team, we've been fairly early adopters of crew safety items, like the HANS device and side head restraint seats, roll cage improvements among others. We definitely want to make it to the next rally, no matter what happens on the stage! :-) FWIW, some of the most dangerous spectator situations I've had have been in Canada. I love to rally with you all, so don't take that comment the wrong way. Pat crashed at Charlevoix a couple of years ago because of a spectator on his line. Check out of Perce Neige video from 2003 to see guys on the inside of two linked corners(it's in slow-mo in the middle someplace). We entered a hot stage at Charlevoix with spectators walking out BOTH sides, no who seemed worried enough to move. Anyway, we'll continue to strive for improvements in our driving, our car and our team. We'll leave the marketing up to the specialists, and hope that all the North American series can sustain themselves. We wouldn't konw what to do if we didn't have a place to play! :-) Hope to see some of you at the AGM! Cheers! John |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by Craig_Hamm on 12/28/4 at 11:34:11 AlanO wrote on 12/16/4 at 15:29:35:
Insulting?? I think that's a bit harsh. Anyway, if you don't love it, why do it?? Obviously, it's ultimately for the love of rallying, because it sure as hell isn't for the massive prize fund, or huge TV exposure for the teams outside of the top 5. Not in this country anyway. Who ever denied the cost? Doesn't that simply strengthen the arument that these people love to rally. If it were free, anybody and everybody would be doing it. Only those that love it will remain, and spend the money, and take the time to press on. Rallying won't die because people love to do it. It won't die with loss of sponsorships. The grassroots, don't forget, will save the sport more than anybody's chequebook. As long as there is interest people will find a way to rally. That's good news. |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by AlanO on 12/30/4 at 08:36:01 C. Hamm wrote on 12/28/4 at 11:34:11:
My point exactly. The implicit statement in the original post said to me that if people didn't like the costs, then they are not real rally enthusiasts and should take up another hobby. I wanted to point out that those who are involved with the "commercialization" of rallying are doing so because they are real rally enthusiasts and want the sport to prosper. Some of those who try to draw more sponsorship into rallying (the top-flight competitors) are currently spending enormous amounts of money out of their own pockets. I thought the post would be insulting to some because the poster suggested that they were not true enthusiasts even though they are doing a lot to help the sport grow. Costs keep rising and I don't really think many teams can afford significant hikes in entry fees. That leaves sponsorship as the best (only?) way to keep costs to competitors at current or reduced levels. If we just say "Screw them, if they can't afford to pay, they shouldn't play" then the sport will die a quick death. Quote:
Well said, but ultimately it's the competitors' chequebooks that keep this sport alive. If we can alleviate the financial burden on competitors we can open up the sport to more people. On the bright side, 2005 is looking like it will be a good year despite the off-season controversies. Subaru is back on board with the OPRC and it sounds like there will be a pile of new performance rally teams in Ontario. We are getting tremendous interest from Quebec teams, too. Here's hoping for a great season! |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by luv2drift on 12/30/4 at 13:14:49 AlanO wrote on 12/30/4 at 08:36:01:
I think you read what you wanted to read. My post did not imply a lack of enthusiasm on the part of competitors. What I did imply, was that if these are costs involved in racing, and they will continue to do so at one level or another. Quote:
That's your opinion. Don't confuse your real rally enthusiasts misdirected effort with successful, healthy growth. Comercialization doesn't work for the integrity of all sports. (ie. hockey, oh that's right there's no season!) The more $$$ involvement by sponsors, the more pressure on clubs and org.'s to meet their sponsor needs opposed to the sports best interest. They become dependant on this extra revenue, event costs rise, and then soon after can't remember how they functioned without it. re: SCCA's new sponsor/spectator friendly 'race' series? (I won't call it rally.) Quote:
Help sport grow? Hey don't kid yourself, they're not out there for you, but to satisfy a desire within themselves. Hey, I'd do the same if I could offset the costs to do what I love too. ;) Why do you rally? If the sport prospers all the better, but your not out there drifting out of corners for the sake of sport. Quote:
Hey, no one is forced to race a 300hp turbo all wheel drive monster or run fancy trailers, or wear co-ordinating fancy team apparel, etc., etc. I don't know, so I'm asking, but are public/private roads rented for a rally event? If not, isn't insurance the main unavoidable rising cost to the sport? Maybe look into class restrictions/rule changes to reduce cost to the competitor. How do you think other race org's reduce cost? |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by Craig_Hamm on 01/04/5 at 00:43:08 luv2drift makes good points imo. As much as we ALL love rallying, and ALL want to see it flourish, when you are "in the moment," it is for yourself. I see some of Alan's points, too. As far as roads go, they are mostly "free" but you need to fix road damage, but there is less road damage from the lower powered cars, though they pay the same road damage levee as the monster cars that do all the ripping up. Furthermore, the guys on a smaller budget need to run behind on the torn up roads behind the more monied guys. Insurance is always an unavoidable cost concern. I agree that while it is fantastic to have sponsors for an event (I had some for Lanark and am grateful to them) it DOES raise the level of effort and the level of expectation from the competitors. As far as the pureness of the rallying goes, you do not need sponsors. They are there to offer competitors and the organiser some well appreciated perks, and to advertise their fine products. No shame in any of it. But, I wouldn't want my event to be cancelled because I lost a sponsor. Good, accurate route notes, safe, insured, and great road choice or devilish instructions on a navvie, and it is pure rallying. I am just as happy, or more happy if I see 40 P1-P3, some P4, cars getting flogged hard out there, by budget teams, at each event, or regional, than to see the 12-15 teams we get now. I mean, as a marshal, I want to see some action for all that driving, time and expense I go through to help out! The most fun I had at GCFR was seeing if Matt Follett would finish in the car that looking worse for wear, and he did. He just kept smiling, and driving, and they made it. It was great fun in P1. No pretense there. Good honest, budget rallying. Fast ? Nope, but fun!! That's dedication. It's really great to see interest from Quebec, but I fail to see how it promotes lower cost to expect a regional team to run at Baie. The towing costs are more than some percentage increase in entry fees. I won't even marshal there unless I plan on staying for some vaction. Way to far away for me, and I'm not towing. I hear it's a great event, however. |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by AlanO on 01/04/5 at 09:46:49 C. Hamm wrote on 01/04/5 at 00:43:08:
For sure. And luv2drift's opinions and concerns are certainly valid and insightful. I guess we just disagree on the potential costs and benefits of commercialization. (and luv2drift, after rereading my original posts, I realize that I may have come across a bit harshly - not my intention, sorry!) Quote:
Me too. P3 is my favourite class. The competition is very tight, the fields are fairly large and it's one of the more economical classes to run. But, for better or for worse, it's the Evos and the STIs that grab people's attention and draw them into the sport. The drivers of the turbocharged AWD monsters are the heroes to the young kids. I think it's good for the sport to have some of these cars running and should try to help these guys find sponsorship and reduce costs It's equally important to help the small teams, too. Building up the Production classes will give new drivers a competitive, cost-effective way to get into the sport, and having a strong pack at the front of the field will give them a target when they move up. Quote:
They deserve a ton of credit. Those guys are the model for perseverance and dedication. Congrats! Quote:
The new structure of the championship means that teams can go to Baie but does not have to go. The best 4 out of 6 results score for the championship, best 3 if a team does not run one of the standalone regionals. Teams can skip one or two events and still have a very good shot at the championship. At the same time, the new structure of the championship gives many Quebec teams a cheap way to run a championship. The new rules in the Coupe de Quebec have alienated a number of teams, who would really have no regional championship to run without the OPRC. But the current setup for the OPRC means that a Quebec team can run three events in its home province and run one event in Ontario. So hopefully we can get more entries in Ontario events and help the Quebec teams who feel excluded from the CdQ. IMO this system will benefit everybody - Quebec and Ontario teams will have more competitive fields, and Quebec and Ontario events can expect more entries. It's almost an Eastern Canadian Rally Championship (maybe something to consider formally setting up...?) |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by nhibbert on 01/04/5 at 14:12:53 There's an idea. East vs. west. Each side of the country could have it's own series, and then we could meet in the middle somewhere for one final national rally. Maybe Thunder Bay could play host. Thinking big. If it was scheduled right, and organized exceedingly well, it could eventually become the WRC Rally Canada event, as well. |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by luv2drift on 01/04/5 at 14:25:28 AlanO wrote on 01/04/5 at 09:46:49:
I agree! ;D ;) Quote:
Hey, forget about it. It's easy to do when your passionate about something! That is what's great about this forum. The sharing of ideas and opinions! Only good can come from that. Silence never helped clubs or orgs. move forward. Quote:
I've always been partial to the more production based classes. Hey, even when I dream it's practical! Quote:
Yeah, I guess I forget that not everyone would be as happy to see P1 - P3 as some of use would. But I must repeat though, the competitors choose the car they want to race, not the club. The faster you play, the more you pay rule applies to all forms of racing! It always has. |
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Title: Re: SCCA announces new rally program Post by Craig_Hamm on 01/04/5 at 22:44:12 Hey, I agree with both of you. Mark it down on your calendars. :) The top teams are my "heros" too, but if I was "god" and had to choose between a few big cars, and a smattering of P classes at each regional, or a ton of P class entries, I'll go with the latter. In Europe they have no issues with running big series with small displacement cars. I agree, though, the big teams bring the sex-appeal to the sport, and they are awesome to watch! On the Baie issue, you could be right. Maybe it will work out well for all parties. I'm into that if it happens. I give credit for trying it out. |
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