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MLRC Forum
https://www.mlrc.ca/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl General >> Rally >> Rules re movement of cars during rallies https://www.mlrc.ca/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1126717851 Message started by bobjim on 09/14/5 at 12:10:51 |
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Title: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by bobjim on 09/14/5 at 12:10:51 At a recent rally, a car experienced mechanical problems at the out control at a start of a leg. The car was pushed out of the control and then loaded unto a trailer and transported to just before the in control at the next service (there were no stages in between - just a long transit). The car was off loaded and pushed into the in control and then into service where it was fixed and successfully rejoined the rally under its own power. Is this allowed under the rules ? Beyond this specific situtuaion, I can see other situations - such as after the last stage of a leg where there is a long transit either to the end of the rally or a leg, that bringing a trailer to the end of the stage and loading the car unto it for transport to the end could be advantageous. There seems to me there are issues here other than just rules but I would like to know if the rules allow this. If so, I would be curious as to the rationale if anyone has any knowledge of this ? |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by RyanHuber on 09/14/5 at 16:10:07 In a word, no. Outside of service, nobody other than the driver, co-driver, other competitors, or possibly spectators if in a stage are allowed to touch the car. A car can be pushed through a control zone (ONLY by the driver/co-driver, though). If you're referring to Defi, I was specifically told by the organizer that we were not allowed to do the long saturday am transit on the trailer. I have heard of cars being towed by other competitors through a transit, but not being able to use the trailer unless specifically allowed by the organizers. On that note, if you are talking about Defi, I'm curious who it was. Not that it matters now, just curious. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by yuyu on 09/15/5 at 00:25:25 hi guys, have been coming on this forum for a long time usely to get pics but today i will actuly post since you are talking about our crew . I dont actuly know if what we have done is legal or not but i thinks the rule said that the car have to get in and out of control on is own power or push by one of is crew member (driver or co-driver ) during the transit i thinks that you can be pull , tow or push it dosent matters . I also know that Yohan Tessier the coupe du quebec champion was disqualified after winning the RALLYE DES DRAVEURS in august in maniwaki after another compeditor pull him into control whit the tow rope if he hade push is car into control by himself it would been ok i thinks Anyway my brother and i where expecting a protsest but it never came so we have won the p-1 class and the important part we have finish our close to home rallye sorry for the bad english i do my best see you all at the tall pine in november Julien Cloutier Co-Driver AJC RALLYE |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by bobjim on 09/21/5 at 22:18:53 So basically you knew that you were breaking the rules but went ahead and did it anyway? It gives you the Canadian P1 championship and puts you in good shape to win Ontario P1. The people that really get screwed by this are Ian and George. I am curious as to why rally officials did nothing. I just spoke with someone that saw you unloading your car off your trailer just before the in control after the transit - in sight of the checkpoint. Officials obviously knew that this was against the rules - they told Ryan Huber that for one. This seems to raise some questions about Defi and generally about the championship ?? Maybe there is a slant on this that I am not understanding ?? |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by RyanHuber on 09/22/5 at 07:12:20 Ultimately, it's up to the competitors there to protest if something happens they feel is against the rules. If nobody did, and the results are declared final, well, then that's that. Ultimately, it's my opinion that we never should have done that transit in the rallycars anyways, but that's just me. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by bobjim on 09/22/5 at 16:51:40 Ryan: I am sure many competitors would agree with you that a 80 k transit over paved and busy public highways would not be their preference to start a leg of a rally. No doubt the organizer had a different perspective. However, that's not the issue. Just because something doesn't make sense to someone doesn't give anyone the right to break rules. And they didn't break the rule for any reason other than they couldn't get to the service any other way. This saved them the DNF that they were otherwise facing. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Jeannie on 09/22/5 at 17:05:17 In some cases (and I don't know if this is one), it's not so much a question of having other competitors protest, as of having an official see the particular act and rule on it. I did some looking around in the CARS rulebook. The only thing I could find related to service crews was on p. B-43. And here, we're discussing trailering a car during a transit, which is considered to be part of a rally. So: 8. Service is defined as work carried out on the car by any person other than the competing crew, or the use or receipt by the crew of any manufactured materials (solid or liquid), spare parts, tools or equipment other than those carried in the competing car, etc. 9. All service shall be confined to official service parks. I checked this because I wanted to understand the circumstances better. Since everyone else drove their car on the transit, and the supp regs did not say teams could trailer their cars on the transit, I'm assuming this was against the rules. However, either a competitor had to protest or an official had to observe and act on what he or she saw. This was our first time at Defi, so a lot of things were new. If anyone is better informed, and can find a more applicable regulation, feel free to add your comments. I'm still a novice. Jeannie |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Craig_Hamm on 09/22/5 at 19:46:48 RyanHuber wrote on 09/14/5 at 16:10:07:
Then spectators can't help a team out of a ditch on a stage, which is common? You must mean 'can't service', not 'cant touch.' |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Craig_Hamm on 09/22/5 at 20:03:41 Jeannie VE3JNE wrote on 09/22/5 at 17:05:17:
You can't enforce what the rules don't say. They don't say you can't smoke cigars on transits. Is it therefore wrong to smoke cigars on transits? I don't know, it's not 110% clear to me that #8 was violated. The trailer didn't augment the car, as a part, not did it receive fluids (I trust), so what was provided was passage, not 'service.' However, 'work carried out on the car' might possibly include fastening the car down to the trailer, for example, which is then service outside of an 'official service park'. Maybe the organisers need an Observation Control somewhere on the transit to catch cars on trailers if they don't want that, or maybe marshals at Defi need to be more diligent of cars arriving to the start control on trailers. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by bobjim on 09/22/5 at 20:58:24 I have found a CARS 2005 General Competition Rules and Rally Regulations. From that: A-13 CARS Rally General Competion Rule 5.14 "Every entrant, competitor or crew member at a CARS sanctioned event shall conduct himself/herself according to the highest standards of behaviour and sportsmanship, particularly in relationship with other competitors and officials, and in a manner that shall not be prejudicial to the reputation of CARS or to the automobile sport. Failure to do so may result in a penalty." And then the definative rule (which no doubt properly led to the exclusion at Maniwaki referred to above): B-41 CARS National Rally Regulation VI F "To qualify as a finisher, an entry shall check in at every control in the rally within MPE-MPL. 1. A competing vehicle shall complete the entire course under its own power. (Failure to do so will result in exclusion.)" |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Jeannie on 09/23/5 at 11:18:11 The above comments certainly seem germane to me. Craig, re what I cited: 8. Service is defined as work carried out on the car by any person other than the competing crew, OR THE USE OR RECEIPT BY THE CREW OF ANY MANUFACTURED MATERIALS (solid or liquid), SPARE PARTS, TOOLS OR EQUIPMENT other than those carried in the competing car, etc. I think a trailer (= equipment) would be included in that definition. I'd be interested to hear what some officials have to say (and will probably ask some of them privately). Jean |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Craig_Hamm on 09/25/5 at 20:22:55 I'm trying to be devil's advocate. The trailer is external to the car, different from getting a brake job, or a tire replaced, or an extra quart of oil, but ultimately I think bobjim found the right rule for exclusion. The entire course includes transits. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by bobjim on 09/25/5 at 21:00:32 I am glad that Craig has reached the same conclusion. So what happens now ? With these points which it is agreed they aren't entitled to, this team moved into a a tie and took away the Ontario P1 Championship from Ian Crerar and Georges Lavoie. Now Crerar and Lavoie have to beat this team at Tall Pines to win. This isn't right, fair, reasonable nor should it be acceptable. It also demeans the competitors involved and the CARS and Ontario Championships and the Rallye Defi. As an interesting and related point, Crerar and Lavoie suffered mechanical failure in one of the stages Friday night. They were hauled back to service where they fixed the problem but were properly denied a restart and were DNF'd. The rules were properly applied in their case. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by John_Vanos on 09/26/5 at 09:51:00 I think it is clear that it was not legal for them to trailer the car but I see it a bit differently from there on. I think in the same situation as the team in question I would have done the same thing. They tried it and got away with it because no one protested them. Obviously something needs to be done to enforce the rules in the future but its too late now. The results are final and scores cannot be changed. It may not be fair in this case but nothing can be done now. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by bobjim on 09/26/5 at 10:08:32 John: I agree with you to a point too. In the same circumstances I would have taken the car to service and attempted to fix it. If it was not fixable, then there would have been no need for any further discussion - the DNF would take place. On the other hand, as in this situation, if through good luck, good work, whatever, the car was adequately repaired, then I think it would be appropriate then to ask for a clarification of the rules before continuing. For a number of reasons - this is the honest thing to do for one. Additionally, what sense does it make to continue to punish the car and risk life and limb for the Saturday stages only to be correctly DNF'f at the end ? The attitude thst they got away with it, congratulations, I really question. At some point we all have to be responsible for our own actions. Flagrantly breaking rules to beat out other competitors should not be acceptable. Other competitors should not be forced into situations where they have to protest if the matter is such a cut and dry situation as this one. I do agree with your suggestion that this needs to be considered in some way in the future to lessen the likelihood of the same thing happening again. I don't think that you are 100% correct either in saying that there is no recourse at this time. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by RyanHuber on 09/26/5 at 12:11:55 It's on the RSO agenda for this evening, I'm sure there will be lots of discussion. I don't know what kind of outcome there will be without involving CARS, the event stewards, etc, but we'll see. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Craig_Hamm on 09/28/5 at 14:57:26 I would say that as a matter of practice, a team in Class X should monitor others in Class X, insofar as possible (this could be tricky) to ensure a fair game, and not rely soley on officials or other observers to note rules infractions. Presumably all teams in Class X are *fairly* close in the stage-start-finish order throughout the rally (P1 ones don’t generally mix with P4s, etc.), and I would think you could notice a trailer arriving at the start. It might also mean something for where you choose to set up in the service park (next to teams in your class). This sounds paranoid, and it is, but what else you gonna do when the event officials aren’t picking up this stuff? I’m not saying this is “the answer,” just that it seems you have to be aware of your competition all the time. Hey, the WRC teams have guys ‘wandering’ around the service park all the time, they’re fully aware of what’s going on (something to do with the big bucks). |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Jeannie on 09/29/5 at 13:44:14 bobjim wrote on 09/22/5 at 20:58:24:
I think all you have to do is ask if the team in question conducted themselves according to "the highest standards of behaviour and sportsmanship . . . ". What might officials feel is necessary in response? If it's on the RSO agenda, it's not going unnoticed. I've heard some of the discussion, and am following this with a lot of interest. Jeannie |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by RyanHuber on 09/29/5 at 14:27:49 Essentially, RSO can't do anything about this. According to the rulebook, anyone is welcome to write to the CARS board and the event stewards and make a case, citing the pertinant rules, for an exclusion after the event. It is up to the competitors involved to make their case, essentially, and the stewards and CARS board to make a decision. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by yuyu on 10/05/5 at 09:34:00 I have been away for a wild but i see that the trailler incident is still a hot topic I will take a few minutes to explain wath really happens on that saturday morning First, my brother and i did continue the rally because we want to do all he stage at defi or any other rally that we enter Second, in Maniwaki when Yohan Tessier was DNF it was because he had been pull in the control by another compeditor he did not get in control on is own power it,s not the same situation . Third, when the car broke in tremblant the saturday morning Ian and George (who are the big loser in this case according to the guys name jimbob) offer us to pull our swift to duhamel whit their car. After a bit of discussion between me, my brother, Ian and georges we decide that it will be more safe to put the car on Ian and George trailler and go down to Duhamel as quick as possible because we knew that the crew at service can fixe a lot in 20 minutes . What Ian and george did that morning buy putting our car on the trailler tow the car in Duhamel show what rally is all about, it show the true spirit of the sport we all love . So a big thanks again to Ian an George. If some of you guys feel that we should give our championships points back just take them back we dont really care, we don rally for fun, to meet nice people who have the same paassion. We are not rallying for championnship, trophee or money just for fun So for your next discussion about the subject keep in mind that the trailler we use was Ian and Georges trailler we got in and out of evry control on our own power. Is there a difference between being pull by another compeditor during a transit or beieng trailler by another compeditor during a transit ? If the awnser is yes please explain It's all the time i have for now but i will be back later to see the progress of the discission Julien Cloutier Co-Driver AJC RALLYE |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Jeannie on 10/06/5 at 12:46:43 A protest would be typically lodged against a competitor in the same class, right? So if Ian and George helped out another team in their class, I would think that changes the tenor of this discussion. What it doesn't change is the second issue, which is travelling through a transit under the rally car's own power. If it is indeed a black-and-white isse (and I was under the impression that it was), then the other instance that is cited --- being pulled by another competitor through a transit --- seems a little irregular. I have no idea what the definitive answer is, or how such issues are decided. But I certainly find it very interesting. Jeannie |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by RyanHuber on 10/06/5 at 20:41:41 Well, I have heard of competitors with a bad gearbox or whatever being towed through the transit after the stage by another competitor car, which isn't a problem. Now, another competitor towing you with their rig is another area altogether. Combine that with the fact that the team in question is already DNF, they're no longer competing then, and that can really be considered outside assistance IMO. Then again, they're the ones who have the only reason to question it, so, if they helped, I guess they don't mind it coming down to a battle at Pines ;) |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Jeff_Hagan on 10/07/5 at 08:41:04 RyanHuber wrote on 10/06/5 at 20:41:41:
Actually, it is a problem. There's no distinction in the rulebook between towing methods. Any team that wasn't penalized for being towed through a transit was very lucky. The rules are clear and specific: the car must complete the course under its own power. This allows for a tug out of a snow bank, but does not allow for towing an injured car back to service. And as a side note, you don't have to be in the same class to submit an inquiry or protest against another competitor. Any team can potentially be affected by any other, even in another class, whether it's in terms of overall points, novice points, or the possibility of getting stuck behind them on a stage. Jeff Hagan VP - Performance Rally Sport Ontario |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Jeannie on 10/07/5 at 13:02:43 Thanks for the clarification, Jeff. Lots to think about, especially the fact that all teams need to know and abide by the rules! Jean |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by darryl on 10/12/5 at 10:02:23 This issue of towing/trailer during transit is silly. The rules should be changed in my opinion. To me performance rally is about having fun on closed roads. Performance rally is about pushing a car to its limits. The win and points go to the team with the best driver/co-driver skills. My grandmother drives 25kms every wed to play bingo. No collisions or DNFs in 10 years. This dosen't mean she is a good driver. Then why does a transit count against the measure of the driver and co-driver's skills? If I won a thophy because the competition broke down on the transit back to the final time control, I would give the trophy to the true winner of the stages. Battles are fought and won on stages, not transits. ------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry about the rant, I just got out of a bad meeting. -Darryl |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by dtompsett on 10/12/5 at 11:39:13 But the justification is that, say your car and another competitor are equally damaged (say..... turbo is dying, cv joint is nearing death, engine is close to seizing)..... you drive the transit, continuing to damage your vehicle (perhaps you don't even know there is a problem), while your competitor gets their car towed during the transit. Both of you start with the same times you had at the end of the last stage, but your car is now less reliable than your competitor; he now has an advantage over you. You both drive the stage, your turbo blows out, or you break a cv joint, but your competitor manages to finish the stage, and then baby it back to the finish. Meanwhile, while you were setting a faster stage time than they were, you are now stuck on stage waiting for a tow. Suddenly it seems that the battle has also moved to strategy for transits; you'll have every team loading their cars up onto trailers to transit.... atleast then you won't need road insurance on your stage rally car, since you won't be driving the car through transits. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Andrew_Harvey on 10/12/5 at 11:43:18 I think rallies are great BECAUSE they include tranists. Rally is a test real cars, not trailer queens. Rally is also meant to be a test of navigation(to lesser extent) and driving skills. Car perpartion and ones ability to make the car last till the real finish line is key is all part of what makes rally unique. Everyone is up in arms about what rally costs. I think adding that teams can trailer their cars between stages would send competitors costs through the roof, not to mention the lovely scene of loading and unloading for every(or perhaps just the long ones) stage. To me, a good rally driver is only as good as their car...and it has to last to the finish line under its own power. Andrew |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by dtompsett on 10/12/5 at 17:17:00 *thumbs up* |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by bobjim on 10/12/5 at 17:33:21 Several comments re recent posts. This transit was approximately 80 k in length so it was very much part of the rally. A car that was carried through it on a trailer had a unfair advantage over everyone else that had to drive it. For example any car that drove through this transit on soft compound gravel tires had less grip after this transit than someone with the same tires that didn't use them for the same 80 k. As suggested above, simply by driving a car any distance, there is exposure to wear and tear that obviously isn't there for a car being moved on a trailer. There were many mechanical based DNFs on this event - I suspect some of these might have been less likely with 80 less k on the cars involved. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by bobjim on 10/12/5 at 18:21:17 Rules are there to ensure as far as possible a level playing field for all competitors so (within their class) they can compete equally and so that the winner will be declared based on a fair competition. When a competitor knowingly breaks the rules to gain an unfair advantage or result over his fellow competitors, he is, in my opinion, doing several really unacceptable things: - he is attacking his fellow competitors in a way that they should not have to worry about - he is demeaning the specific competitions - he is demeaning most other competitors who don't want to be seen as involved in a sport that allow cheaters to win - he is demeaning himself and other members of his team There are all sorts of discussions about the needs to raise the visibilty of the sport and to attrack new sponsorship and new competitors. How are we going to do this if we are perceived as no better than a bunch of really immature children fighting things out by ignoring rules when it is to our advantage and winning by whatever, legal or illegal methods needed ? I am not sure that too many sponsors would want to associate with championship series that are won by breaking the rules rather than by playing by them ? Maybe there are rules that are not the best or are now out of date. Fine. Have the discussions, and then in the appropriate way, vote to change the ones that need to be changed. In the meantime, the competitions have to be run using the rules in place at the time. Every competitor and rally official has, in my opinion, a very heavy personal responsibility to attempt to ensure that the rules as they exist for a given competition are followed. Other competitors should not have to enforce the rules by filing protests. There will be times when there is a real question as to the applicability or an interpretation of a rule in a specific circumstance. In such cases, hopefully the competitors involved first, then the organizers, and finally if needed, the stewards will seek to sort the problem out. But this should be the exception not the normal way of doing things. In situations where a rule is broken inadvertently or without intent, hopefully the competitor breaking the rule will do the responsible thing when it is drawn to his or her attention. The competitor would acknowledge that he/she didn't fully understand the rule and having broken it and having achieved a result that he/she was not entitled to, would ask that they be excluded from the final results. This would be the complete opposite of the demeaning results suggested above - it would be fair to other competitors, it would enhance the personal reputation of the competitor initially at fault and it would serve as one illustration that these competitions and the sport can be carried on in a mature and honourable fashion. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Craig_Hamm on 10/12/5 at 20:08:29 You raise excellent points, hard to argue against anything you said. Yet, I'm not sure potential sponsors would want to read this dirty laundary in a public forum either. Bring it in off the line. Write to CARS, RSO, etc. This rally was over a month ago. I'd chalk it up to more hard won experience that may give you an advantage for the rest of your rallying carreer. Aside from the envigorating academic debate it has generated, the results are final as much as that sucks, we all know certain people are pissed off about it, and no doubt the people who feel they got screwed will be using their microscopes on the errant or cheating team or whatever you want to call them next time they're competing together. I have no doubt that this infraction is very unlikely to happen, or go unnoticed, ever again, by you, anyway. I'll be on my toes for sure! |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by darryl on 10/13/5 at 06:49:05 Just so we are clear, I never suggested or condoned breaking the rules. I just don’t fully agree with them. Also my comments are general ones about club rally, not the specific incident that started this tread. Some good points raised but I don’t fully agree that having your car towed back to service during a transit stage is an unfair advantage. There are always going to be teams with more resources and money, a definite advantage. Unfair? Not necessarily. Lets be realistic, this is club racing where the award is a $5 piece of wood. There have been many discussions on the lack of competitors over the past year. I just think that you are going to loose a few more competitors because you deny them the chance to run over some thing as silly as part A breaking at the beginning of a transit and there is a new part A sitting back at service. Maybe more importantly the fans will be upset. Look at what happened at the US F1 race. Cheers, Darryl Good discussion, I hope no one is severally pissed off. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Wedge on 10/13/5 at 08:00:44 darryl wrote on 10/13/5 at 06:49:05:
Think of it this way. Before the rally (any rally for that matter), all competitors were told that the rally was a specific distance, I will guess and say about 400km. But by towing through that transit, that car did not travel the full 400km, it only travelled 320km. That is most definately an unfair advantage. And It should be very easy to say that this car "Did Not Finish". Note: I don't know anything about the specific incident at Defi, I don't even know what competitors were involved. I'm just commenting on the specific point of trailering through transits. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by darryl on 10/13/5 at 08:26:26 Don’t get me wrong, I love to see the ingenuity of the driver/co-driver using tie downs to hold the strut in the car or getting water from the neighbor hood swimming pool so the engine doesn’t overheat. But I doubt that any competitor would complain if there were only a total of 10kms of transit stage. The rules also state that a car must be completely road legal. A srutineer sure would look silly if he/she denied Pat Richard the chance to run at Tall Pines simply because a turn signal light was blown out. Rules are mostly black and white; life is anything but :-/ |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Andrew_Harvey on 10/13/5 at 08:41:21 darryl wrote on 10/13/5 at 08:26:26:
actually, I think it would make pat look silly.;) OK, but he would certainly get a note in his logbook that would tell them to fix it by the next event. We can't be picking and choosing the rules we follow. Does no one else see how being able to trailer cars between stages would really increase the cost? Most sane people I know use their tow vehicles as a giant toolbox/resource vehicle at service. The last thing I would want to do would be to unload my car, and then start unpacking/seting up service in 20 minutes. Just because I couldn't afford to have 'tow crew' AND a 'service crew' would put me at a giant disadvantage.. OR, what if someone has an enclosed trailer and decides to work on their car in transit(inside the trailer!)? Pretty tough to police that? (don't laugh, it happened at Targa). I don't know who was involved at Defi either, I just don't think the rule should be changed. If anything, a variation of SuperRally should be adopted. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by darryl on 10/13/5 at 09:12:32 "If anything, a variation of SuperRally should be adopted." Not sure what you are talking about here? Definitely I agree that towing the car every transit is a bit extreme and costly. Really my point is that if someone was broken down on transit on the way to service, let the guy tow the car into service for repairs so he can continue on to the next stage. It would be easy to write it into the rules that if someone does tow their car to service (by trailer or fellow competitor) during a transit, give them a 1-5 minute penalty. That way people won’t be doing it just to save wear and tear on the car. And really this wouldn’t be an advantage over other competitors, it just helps the crew get more seat time and if they care a few more points towards the championship. Any thoughts? -Darryl |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Jeannie on 10/13/5 at 10:03:18 SuperRally? Like a giant rallycross, right? So without transits. I think the officials would need to decide, and state in the Supp Regs, whether trailers could be used on long transits. I know one rally out of Calgary allowed competitors to do that, if they chose. Regarding Defi, I would comment that the officials at any, and every, rally need to keep their eyes open. I'm also sure there are discussions at the official level about this situation. It can't have gone unnoticed. Re the rules: a penalty for towing sounds like something that could be discussed. Then you get to finish it but suffer the consequences for having had an advantage, so to speak, over your fellow competitors. Is this Darryl M, by the way? And about signal lights: I remember the team I crewed for at Targa Newfoundland 2002 having some very intense moments because of something as minor as lights. It needed to get fixed before they could run. I should say that we are a really grassroots team, so everything we are discussing affects us. Jeannie |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Andrew_Harvey on 10/13/5 at 10:26:20 They use SuperRally in the WRC. It allows teams that DNF to start again, at the end of a leg or the next day. Ovbiously on WRC events that are 3 days long, it is a little easier to run this type of rule. However, having cars that aren't competing running with those that are opens up a huge can of worms. Andrew |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Andrew_Harvey on 10/13/5 at 10:31:48 Teams CANNOT score points after they restart in SuperRally. That wasn't clear in my previous post. They are scored as a DNF. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Wedge on 10/13/5 at 11:26:53 Andrew_Harvey wrote on 10/13/5 at 10:31:48:
You mean in your proposed SupeRally system? Why not? The way a SupeRally system works, is they receive the stage time of the slowest competitor in their class + 5 minutes, per every stage missed. If such a system were to be adopted, there is no reason to deny that competitor any points, as they would almost surely be last anyways. The WRC SupeRally system does allow competitors to score points after restarting. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Jeannie on 10/13/5 at 12:25:34 To recap, isn't the point of this discussion: 1. A team unfairly towed a vehicle through a transit. 2. No one noticed and/or lodged a protest. 3. The team won their class, accumulating points against others who ran by the rules. Then someone who did notice began this topic. I can't imagine drastic changes being introduced because of this situation. Whether RSO chooses to address it with the team involved is something we wouldn't necessarily know about. I don't think it will affect the sport, discourage people from entering or disenchant the fans. What it does mean is that not all competitors are reading the rulebook, or abiding by those rules. The rallies we are involved in are small and often the transits are minimal. You would want to think about that before proposing rules for all rallies. Perhaps the next step is to formally address any proposals with RSO. Jeannie |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by AlanO on 10/13/5 at 18:34:33 A car that needs a tow to complete a transit has, in all likelihood, already lost a ton of time on the stages. An additional penalty would be simply kicking them while they're down. I realize that the case discussed in this thread is different because the car in question received a tow at the start of the day - but this is an exceptional case, and the first of its kind that I am aware of. IMO a victory achieved because a competing team failed to complete a transit is a hollow victory. Transits are designed to connect the competitive portion of the event. Sure, they are still part of the rally, but the event is designed to be (and should be) won on the stages. I wouldn't take much satisfaction or pride in winning if my rival DNFed on the run to service. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Craig_Hamm on 10/13/5 at 18:49:26 AlanO wrote on 10/13/5 at 18:34:33:
Stage times?! I'm just in this for the single babes. Never mind. Quote:
Mechanical DNF you mean, I guess. If they they crashed on a transit... that would be rich, verging on sweet (less injuries). The original point of this thread, is that somebody is (still) pissed off, not without some justification. But I don't suspect this problem will occur again anytime soon, what with all the all-seeing eyes out there now, and I don't think any rules need to be changed. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Wedge on 10/13/5 at 20:16:17 AlanO wrote on 10/13/5 at 18:34:33:
But how many cases have there been where somebody has won because somebody else made a math mistake, and took a time penalty? Or where someone has completed all the stages and then broke down on transit to park ferme? It's not any different, and it's part of rallying. A rally cannot be won on a transit, but it can certainly be lost there. I don't think that's hollow at all, in order to win, you must outlast, outsmart and outrun your opponents. You've got to have the whole complete package. That's why rally cars, and rally people are greater than any other motorsport. 8) |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by AlanO on 10/13/5 at 20:45:20 wrote on 10/13/5 at 20:16:17:
Think of it this way: time penalties and broken suspension are analogous in the same way as helping your competitor calculate their time-in and a broken alternator. There's nothing a healthy car can do in the former cases - the broken car can't be towed (easily) and the crew cannot have their opponent's time penalties removed once they are incurred. The outcome is decided and it's tough luck for the unfortunate team. However, in the latter cases, the healthy car can tow the competitor's car to the next service, and the crew can help their competitor calculate their time-in to avoid incurring penalties. Something can be done to avoid the DNF/time penalty. The effect is that the playing field is levelled in the competitive sections of the rally. I guess I see transits differently - I see them as merely a means of getting from one stage to another. Strictly my opinion, though. Quote:
Rally people also have a reputation for helping their fellow participants. Should we start abandoning other competitors when something can be done to keep them in the rally? I'm not suggesting that teams should tow cars through several stages to get them to the next service, or that they should give up spare tires/parts that may be needed later. But I think that teams should try to help each other when there is minimal cost to a healthy team, even if the "weaker" team is a direct competitor. Keeping them in the event makes it more interesting at the end. Having more people in your class is fun! It's always been way more enjoyable for me when I've had good battles in my class - P3 with Dmitri, and P4 and Group N this year. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Wedge on 10/13/5 at 21:04:58 AlanO wrote on 10/13/5 at 20:45:20:
I certainly never meant to suggest otherwise. Just about anyone would stop to pull a stuck car back onto the road. I've been at both ends of the tow rope in my time. And that's all cool. Although I don't think I've ever heard of anyone pulling another competitor all the way through a transit section... Quote:
;D I've said it before, and I'll say it again: There's nothing I love more than a close fight! |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by darryl on 10/13/5 at 21:33:23 Anyone know what time of year RSO and CARS take suggestions for rule changes for the following year? Alan, totally agree, transits are a means of getting from one stage to another. Hi Jeannie, Yes this is Darryl Malone. I'm looking forward to the Lanark event, see you there. -Darryl |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by bobjim on 10/13/5 at 23:49:40 I want to comment on some of the things in one of Craig's most recent posts. Craig is one of the most active and dedicated people in rally today and for this his comments deserve to be carefully and respectfully considered. As an aside Craig, I in fact did what you suggested, I refrained from making further comments on this while the RSO executive was looking at it and until after their minutes were published. The 'airing of dirty laundry in public' I accept as a legitimate concern. The only thing that I would ask is that as you chastise those of us suggesting in public that our rules should be followed, that you spend at least equal time chastising those who advocate in the same public forum that it is not important to follow the rules. I think that an organization can in fact be seen in a positive light if in public it tells all who read that it is committed to conducting it affairs so that its rules are followed. Sure mistakes are made from time to time but if it is shown that the organization has the systems and will in place to discover and fix its errors, then public perception should be enhanced. A really good and important example of this is taking place at Rally America. Mike Hurst the Technical Director is now conducting technical compliance inspections on a regular sample basis before, after and during all Rally America championship events. In so doing he has achieved two things. He has sent a clear message to competitors that they will be held responsible for ensuring their vehicles meet the RA technical rules. At the same time his efforts have significantly enhanced the creditability of Rally America within and outside of the rally community. I would suggest that if we seriously promoted compliance with rules, we might just be able to achieve some of the same enhanced creditability ? |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by bobjim on 10/14/5 at 00:18:04 The night is very late and dark and I suspect that this will be my last post. I have been extremely discouraged by things that I have read in this discussion. It appears that some people really don't understand the real point here (please read the first word in the title of this forum since day one). Additionally the comments from a number of our current "stars" suggesting that it is OK to break our rules is similarly very disheartening. Rules are rules are rules. While they are in place it is the responsibility of all involved - competitor, official, whoever, to do everything reasonably possible to see that the rules are adhered to. If certain rules are bad, then they should be changed or officially suspended. Until that takes place they are the rules that need to be followed. From the posts in this discussion it appears that many people either don't understand or share this viewpoint. While I have no intention of changing my personal opinion as to the need to follow rules, to end this (as suggested by Craig for one) I am prepared to surrender and toss in the towel if someone can answer one short and simple question. How do we know which rules we are supposed to follow and which rules it is OK to break ? |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Jeannie on 10/14/5 at 11:05:47 bobjim wrote on 10/14/5 at 00:18:04:
I agree. Jeannie |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by RyanHuber on 10/14/5 at 11:45:54 As do I. The stewards are aware of what happened. As for rule changes, the period for rule submissions to CARS has passed for '06. |
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Title: Re: Rules re movement of cars during rallies Post by Craig_Hamm on 10/14/5 at 17:36:14 No. Dont get me wrong, I totally agree, rules need to be followed. I don't think it's good to break ANY rules. Trust me on this one. Not sure where I said otherwise. I can't even say as though I'm real happy about people trailering their cars around on transits for the many good reasons stated by others. (Targa is a different beast, not as clear) I'm definitely glad you took official routes. I just don't see what more can be done about THIS case. It's over, it's not that I believe it was technically or morally correct to break rules. I think you got screwed. I also don't think there needs to be any rule changes, it's not obvious to me, anyway. Other than the Defi event seemed to run very smoothly from my perspective (except for late supper!), I had big concerns about stage/spectator safety, on top of anything that the organisers/marshals *should* have caught on the competitive side. As far as I'm, concerned, rules were broken by some individuals with important safety responsibilities. I think some people here are just thinking outside the box, and maybe those ideas are discouraging to you. |
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