MLRC Forum - Print Page

MLRC Forum
https://www.mlrc.ca/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl
General >> Rally >> Ontario traffic act q's - Rear brakes?
https://www.mlrc.ca/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1154912414

Message started by PAddy on 08/06/6 at 20:00:14

Title: Ontario traffic act q's - Rear brakes?
Post by PAddy on 08/06/6 at 20:00:14

Hi all,

Finally getting the brakes plumbed on my XR and I've run into a small snag, namely my giant rear race calipers don't exactly have a provision for a cable handbrake. The relavent section from the act reads:

"Every motor vehicle, other than a motorcycle, when driven on a highway shall be equipped with at least two braking systems, each with a separate means of application and effective on at least two wheels, one of which shall be adequate to stop the vehicle as required by regulations made by the Ministry and the other of which shall be adequate to hold the vehicle stationary."

As I see it, there could be 3 resolutions to this:

1. A dual master (front/rear) and locking hydraulic handbrake inline with the rear circuit. Provides two seperate circuits, and the rear would have seperate actuation.

2. A second circuit to the rear calipers with a second handbrake handle/MC with a lock. Still would attach to the same fitting on the calipers.

3. A second set of calipers on the rear wheels with their own lines and handle. (Worst case scenario)

I'm curious what anyone else who has come across this hangup has resorted to. I can be contacted off-list if you'd prefer: patrick(dot)mcveigh(at)gmail(dot)com

Thanks in advance!

Title: Re: Ontario traffic act q's - Rear brakes?
Post by Wedge on 08/06/6 at 20:32:30

You are missing something very important in the wording of that law. You are required to have at least "Two separate means" of braking.
They are refering to hydraulic as one means, and mechanical(cable) as another means.
So having dual master cylinders with separate hydraulic circuits still would not conform to this law.
You must have some form of hydraulic brake, and some form of mechanical brake.

So that means that you only have two options:

1. Second set of calipers on the rear wheels.

2. A different set of calipers that do allow for a mechanical activation.

Having said that, there are many rally cars with hydraulic handbrakes. I don't think anyone has ever had any trouble from authorities because of that.

Title: Re: Ontario traffic act q's - Rear brakes?
Post by PAddy on 08/06/6 at 20:49:26

wrote on 08/06/6 at 20:32:30:

Now that I do not agree with. It stipulates two systems with seperate means of application, not how they are actually applied. Since the stock mechanical handbrake on many cars simply engages the same mechanism which the pedal would, I can't see needing a second set of calipers, and would instead run a second lockable line to the rear.

What I'm questioning is if that is even necessary, or if the virtue of having two systems (front/rear) with seperate actuation means (pedal box/lever) is sufficient. ie., what does the phrase "one of which shall be adequate to stop the vehicle as required by regulations made by the Ministry" require? It's only $200 or so more to add the extra hydraulic circuit to the rear, but that's a couple good used tyres...

Title: Re: Ontario traffic act q's - Rear brakes?
Post by Wedge on 08/07/6 at 15:25:00

PAddy wrote on 08/06/6 at 20:49:26:

It's only $200 or so more to add the extra hydraulic circuit to the rear

No, it's true man. If you're modifying your car, specifically to conform to this law by doing anything other than adding a steel cable brake line. Then you are wasting your time, because it still won't conform.

In the phrase: "two separate means", the word "means" means "how it is applied". I don't mean to sound mean (english is fun!), but here's the dictionary definition:
"means (used with a sing. or pl. verb) A method, a course of action, or an instrument by which an act can be accomplished or an end achieved. "
In this case, the word 'means' could be directly replaced by the word 'method'.
The fact that stock mechanical brakes activate the same braking mechanism as the pedal, is irrelivant. The end result is the same, but the method is still different, and that is the relevant part.

Title: Re: Ontario traffic act q's - Rear brakes?
Post by Phil Jeffries on 08/07/6 at 17:53:38

You could try to rig up something similar to the way the first gen Legacy's e-brake works. The e-brake is actually a mini drum brake where the shoes press against the inside of the rotor when you pull the cable.

Just a thought.

Title: Re: Ontario traffic act q's - Rear brakes?
Post by dtompsett on 08/07/6 at 18:24:05

While it may not be exactly HTA compliant, i have seen rally cars running the hydraulic ebrake setup... basically, take your hydraulic handbrake and put a locking mechanism on it... been a little while since I looked at it, but the setup I saw had a little latch that flipped out of the way to make it a handbrake for stages, and flipped back into place to make it an ebrake by way of toothed engagement.

Any way you could swap the rear calipers for something with a cable setup... or a setup that uses the internal drum brake for the ebrake (like the subaru setup).

Title: Re: Ontario traffic act q's - Rear brakes?
Post by PAddy on 08/07/6 at 19:10:04

See, I don't believe the strict "cable interpretation" since a lot of newer luxury cars (like the MB S class) have an electronic handbrake, which otto-magically sets and unlocks itself based on the shifter position. I really don't think that's a cable-actuated system.

My current mocked-up hydraulic ebrake setup uses the stock lever, so the locking mechanism could easily remain in place. I'm just concerned since the car will need to get safetied once I drop the motor in, and I'm not sure if this system is "secondary" enough. I'dve kept the stock ebrake if I could have (I don't envision needing the ebrake that often), but those tiny drums were about 30 years behind the times.

I know ACP's car has the stock cable brakes still intact, but I can't seem to spot them on the last revisions of the Subaru Canada cars. Anyone know what they did?

Title: Re: Ontario traffic act q's - Rear brakes?
Post by dtompsett on 08/07/6 at 19:45:52

ygIM

Title: Re: Ontario traffic act q's - Rear brakes?
Post by Wedge on 08/07/6 at 20:20:37

PAddy wrote on 08/07/6 at 19:10:04:

Ah, but it doesn't have to be a cable. It just has to be something other than hydraulic. So if there's some type of electronic system, that would still be okay.

I'm not saying I'm any kind of stickler for the law myself. I'm just making sure you know what you're getting into.
As long as there is some kind of working handbrake, I really doubt any mechanic would have a problem safetying it.

Title: Re: Ontario traffic act q's - Rear brakes?
Post by Craig_Hamm on 08/07/6 at 22:53:27

The answer is simple. Go ask a garage that does HTA inspections. If you don't like their answer, ask another, and another. And if you get the same story, either way, that's your answer. If you get conflicting results, pick one you like for your inspection (though, I imagine you don't actually need an inspection). On the other hand, modifying your brakes might trigger unhappy insurance 'episodes' if there is ever an accident and they see the brakes have been altered. Unless of course you tell them you altered them as soon as the job is done, as laid out in the insurance act (Ontario Standard Policy), but that won't be fun either.

Title: Re: Ontario traffic act q's - Rear brakes?
Post by Anthony_T on 08/08/6 at 15:01:21

If I was really nervous about the car passing the safety I would leave standard brakes alone until such point as the mechanic issued me the paperwork. I acknowlege though that in some cases doing this may cause extra work and expense on your part unless you had planned everything out that way. My two cents - but Craig's interview method also works.

On the topic of safeties... In my experience, mechanics I have known seem to be more stringent when doing a safety for a person they didn't know previously or if it was on a car which was begin sold to someone else. I've always had better luck going to a small shop where I am already a good customer then by going to someone new (sometimes on recommendations from friends that they'll let anything pass etc...)

Title: Re: Ontario traffic act q's - Rear brakes?
Post by big_Ian on 08/15/6 at 21:14:12

leave it stock....get it saftied .....then start ruining the car.
Ps.If you fiddle with the engine and management hope you have a guy who can do bum e tests too......

or run a 20 plus yr old car

Title: Re: Ontario traffic act q's - Rear brakes?
Post by PAddy on 08/16/6 at 08:01:51

big_Ian wrote on 08/15/6 at 21:14:12:

..
or run a 20 plus yr old car

it's 22 and counting...