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MLRC Forum
https://www.mlrc.ca/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl General >> Rally >> Let's get some feedback from Novices https://www.mlrc.ca/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1174145500 Message started by fweidner on 03/17/7 at 10:31:40 |
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Title: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by fweidner on 03/17/7 at 10:31:40 Let's get some feedback from Novices. If you've been rallying for more than 2 years, please do not respond to this post. Here are some ideas. Let's see what the novices think. 1. Practice sessions Lots of seat time in a non-competitive setting Personally I don't see why everything has to be a competition. Just driving Salmon lake road, etc. at the speed limit without sliding around corners would be totally beneficial. Getting used to gravel, grip levels, crests, apexes - Lots to learn at even WAY BELOW THE SPEED LIMIT. I learned so much at Lanark and that was on open roads. One of the things I learned from Frank, is that very little pendulum turns are needed and to concentrate on the racing line. So, on an open road, you can't go on the left side, that just makes the corner tighter. Lets organize some practice sessions. 2. Mini-rally practice session, tulip instrutions only. Saturday nights on more challenging roads in non-summer months. Monday nights is tough, as you're just waiting to leave because you have to go to work the next day. Also, in the summer, you're compting with vacation, cottaging, boating, etc. Why not run mini-rallies in the fall and winter when the weather is crap, the roads more challenging, there is alot less road traffic. And there are alot less other events to compete for your time. You can start the event earlier, say 5:00 and run to 11:00 pm. That's 6 hours of seat time!!. And you have time to get to fun roads like Salmon lake, etc. John Buffum's winter drivex uses some non-manned checkpoints. We could do the same. Just write down your own time at the checkpoint. No volunteers needed. Very easy to organize. It's not a competition, so no tempation to speed. If you cheat at the checkpoint, you're just cheating yourself because you'll want to compare times the next time you are out. 3. Winter rally school I've already shown it can work and there is lot's of interest 4. Recce pratice sessions I've been giving private instruction to people interested in performance driving. Although I'm a novice, having competed my first year in performance rallying, I still know more than anyone who has never done it before. The feedback has been phenominal. Pick a twisty road road and practice: timing calculations time controls writing notes two pass recce practice reading notes, timing, etc. for the co-driver practice listening to notes for the driver All at below legal speed limits and while adhering to highway traffic act. i,e, no rally style turns etc. OK, so you can't pratice the rally driving aspect, but you pratice everything else involved in a performance rally. I've already proved this works and novices are very interested and that this is very beneficial. I learned the hard way, that the starting line is not the place to learn co-driving at probably $1,000/hr of seat time. Co-drivers should be totally comfortable with all aspects of performance rallying before getting to a performance rally. Practice at $6.00/hr of seat time instead of $1,000/hr of seat time. 5 Putting it all together: Peformance TSD at performance rallyies. Practice the co-driving and rally driving at lower speeds The performance TSD was a cheap way to experience entry level performance rallying. I'm told it will never happen again. Too bad. You could double or tripple car counts at every performance rally. Galway - already proved it can work Tall Pines - do hastings and west eel creek, ( the smooth stages suited for stock suspensions), but reduce CAS to 50 - i.e. VERY SAFE Black Bear - pine springs only, suited to stock suspension 6 Mock performance rally run a rally-X as a performance rally So what do the novices think? |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by Wedge on 03/17/7 at 11:11:01 fweidner wrote on 03/17/7 at 10:31:40:
It's not so good for your credibility when you are just making things up. Your first event was Black Bear'06. I know this because I was your driver. The entry fee for the whole day was $400, which we split two ways. I provided us with free accomodations. And we each won $250 worth of product. Factor in fuel costs, and the total final cost to you for that event was approximately $0.00 So I'm not sure where you come up with $1000/hr... |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by Anthony_T on 03/17/7 at 23:08:55 Ideas about ways in which we can improve rally events of all sorts should be brought to our club meetings (open to all). This way the ideas can be discussed in a serious way and and put to action in a manner where everyone benefits. If one is really serious about making a difference to rally in general and the club specifically, there is no substitute to getting informed by attending club meetings. |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by fweidner on 03/18/7 at 07:07:19 wrote on 03/17/7 at 11:11:01:
I wasn't really refering to Black Bear. I was referring to rallies in general. When you add up fuel costs for the rally car, fuel for recce, food costs, cost of taking days off work, hotel costs, entrance costs ... just all the costs in general in rough numbers to probably comes out to that. Maybe $1,000 /hr is a bit off, it doesn't matter. The point is it's know where near something like a mini-rally at $25/4 hrs = $6/hr. |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by big_Ian on 03/18/7 at 18:38:09 Mt fault guys... I was charging Fred a grand an hour to ride around in my porsche... Fred, stop wasting time posting stuff on MLRC and weld the cage in that WRX.. |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by PeterWatt on 03/18/7 at 19:18:18 Hi Fred, Although I don't really qualify as a "less than two years in the sport" person, I wanted to respond to something Anthony said: He encouraged you to attend club meetings and get involved that way. That is a great idea but not always as appealing as solving problems on one's own. Remember that MLRC only organizes 33% of the events in the Ontario Performance Championship so there is plenty of scope for change. Keep organizing the events you're doing and branch out into the full performance events.Starting something new or affecting change is often a difficut process. Often it takes far longer because we don't have all the background. The sport need new blood and new ideas but don't think for one minute that one should ignore the input of the old-timers as well. There is a wealth of experience and knowledge that can be utilized. Don't turn your back on it. BTW - The closed road tsd event at GCFR came out of the original growth planning meeting. PMSC gave it a try but to a person the OPRC competitors criticized the initiative because it added an additional and intolerable 13 minutes to each of their turnarounds. Point being - sometimes we think something new or different is good because it appeals to one group of people but at the risk of alienating another group. Cheers, Peter |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by cbogooch on 03/18/7 at 20:27:51 My son and I sarted new into the Rally world last year at the OWR helping(?) at a checkpoint. We ended the season at Targa Newfoundland (won a silver plate). Of all the events and learning opportunities we had the TSD at Cavendish was without a doubt the most beneficial (and fun). While performance rally is a goal, we are in no big rush to get there. The events that MLRC and other clubs offer gives us lots to learn and hopefuly improve. Everyone we have met or been involved with has been fantastic, and very helpful. We sincerely appreciate all the time and effort that is put in by the volunteer organization to provide such great driving experiences in a completely safe environment. |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by robin on 03/19/7 at 08:56:23 Peter_Watt wrote on 03/18/7 at 19:18:18:
Not this person - but then maybe feedback was only asked of those who didn't roll...:P After rolling, I had a chance to sit... and watch... as the TSD runners increased their speed with every pass - to a point where I thought it was dangerous - I provide this opinion after having had two big offs on that road now - one of which led to injury. None of us were born with the unalienable *right* to flog little cars like fools on gravel forest roads. There are certain realities that cannot be overcome - one of them is that this can't be done for free. Another is that we live in a society that has little tolerance for risk. Where I agreed with the general *idea* of including TSD runners that was put forth at the growth meeting, having seen it executed, I've changed my mind. You can't shortcut this thing. Proper safety equipment is needed to run at those speeds. Before the inevitable reaction, I'll say that 1) I'm not trying to keep perf. rallying exclusive 2) I'm not trying to justify money I have spent 3) I'm not feeling paternalistic I am faced with reality and I'd like to keep rallying with as many people as possible. :-* Back to whichever of the umpteen Fred topics this was... Robin |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by prmoore on 03/19/7 at 10:09:20 <<Proper safety equipment is needed to run at those speeds. >> "At those speeds"???? The maximum CAS we were given in the TSD division was 76.2km/hr. We got greater penalties for averaging above CAS than for below CAS. Most of us had to slow way down to avoid these penalties, meaning that we were not driving "all out" to meet CAS. As to the "intolerable delay" that having a TSD division caused to those poor performance people: there were 4 cars. At two minutes apart that would be 8 extra minutes delay. As someone else here said, if the goal to get more performance entrants were ever achieved, there would be more cars there too. darn, more delay. Don't you just hate growth. --Rita |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by Jaak on 03/19/7 at 10:20:34 Peter, small correction, I was one of the OPRC at GCFR competitors and I did not criticize the TSD portion. I was glad to see it tried and IMHO the organizers deserved applause. Of course nothing is perfect, certainly not the first time around. It was a good try. I was at the "growth" meeting and was one of the original proponents. BTW, that meeting in Peterborough was worth the drive from Ottawa. Like a number of people have said, we should all attend more meetings to affect improvements...motorsports is run by people and ya gotta work with people in person. I was so grateful at finding MCO in 1998 and enjoying the priviledge of playing that I wanted to give back right away so my second year I served on the MCO Executive as Rally and Solo Director. Which in turn gave me the chance to co-create the Lanark Highlands Rally. The more involved I've been the more fun I've had. Fred, I don't recall if we have met, but if I may repeat the suggestion, go to club meetings, AGMs etc. and talk to people about your ideas...you'll enjoy it, and if you don't mind me saying so, you'll drop some ideas and develop others if you do it positively. IMHO, posting complex ideas to forums is much like whistling in the wind and your efforts will be wasted. There are a lot of really nice people in motorsports who are also really smart people with experience and knowledge that you can build on. You can talk to many of them this Saturday in Newmarket! Jaak |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by robin on 03/19/7 at 12:15:41 prmoore wrote on 03/19/7 at 10:09:20:
Well 76.2 is an interesting number, but what does it tell us: 1) 76.2km/h has you finishing 11/21 finishers (6m39s) on SS1 of the performance event - you know, the event with the cages etc. 2) One competitor scored a couple of 3E - that puts him 8/21 finishers - the meat in an Open class sandwich 3) you scored 10 points - all early, no late (to be fair, you zeroed a lot - obviously making an attempt to do so), another competitor scored 15 points (14 of them early), another scored 28 (14 early) and the last competitor scored 34 points - all early. All this, as you say, with you guys having to "slow way down to avoid these penalties" (how fast were you going?) I recall from the second growth meeting that the goal of including the TSD competitors was so that they could see "a real rally road" and be involved in a performance event -- general acclimatization if you will. I made my observation - not of some number (76.2) but from the side of the stage after rolling on SS1 (there are witnesses to my comments at that time) - and before that being involved in perf. rally competition for quite a while - a while that, much to my chagrin, is characterized by a few offs - some of them pretty big. No offense, but relying on the impressions of the people behind the wheel might not be the best way to go - things have a way of slowing down when you start to go fast. As I said, in my opinion it was dangerous. prmoore wrote on 03/19/7 at 10:09:20:
As I said, I wasn't one of those people - apparently Jaak wasn't either (in fact I heard no complaints at the SS1/SS2 turn-around). I don't hate growth - I love it. But watch what happens to growth if something happens when we're pushing the safety envelope or when someone who isn't a stakeholder in 'this thing of ours' comes along and says "screw the TSD points - I wanna go fast!" Robin (sorry to be throwing your thread so far into space Fred) |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by FWEIDNER on 03/19/7 at 12:59:36 Um .... I still think there is a place for a peformance TSD. I think it should happen in: independant events - why not performance ralllies - if anyone was complaining about waiting - I say get used to it. If any growth plans are successful, you'll have to get used to waiting anyways. 2. Reduce the CAS 3. Reduce the CAS 4 Reduce the CAS to 60, 50, it's not supposed to be a "practice sliding my rally car around the corner without a cage event" I did criterium with a CAS of 60, it was a blast, I even suggested they reduce the CAS to 50, maybe for total beginners. And if a CAS of CAS of 50 or 60 is too slow for you , then it's time to get a cage, but at least you've made it to that level with a relativley low learning cost i.e more people will be ready to make the jump into performance rallying!!! 5. If rallysprint goes back to rollbar only, why not do it at the peformance rallies? You could run it or a performance TSD like a new car class, 4 minutes after the last P1, running a minimum of 2 minutes apart. That way the event would just be like having 20 plus extra cars in the regular performance rally which is what we want anyways. The organisers won't like it, but at this moment in time we're not here to please the organizers, we're here to grow the sport. I'm sure we could double the cars counts. If we had double the car counts to begin with, we wouldn't even be talking about things like this. 6. The benefit to existing peformance rallyists: Double the car count = half the cost per rallyist!! and still same revenue for the club!! more money left over to do more rallies with - US rallies here we come!! It's a win-win situation for everyone!!! IMHO anyways. |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by brynepp on 03/19/7 at 14:16:00 Fred, I'm only going to comment on points 5 and 6. 5 - No one is saying the organizers don't like it. What we are saying is that it adds complication. Complication to an already difficult task of balancing time lines, day light, service, etc. That being said GCFR ran a TSD with there Performance event and we learned a lot. Will GCFR run the same this year? Probably not. Will they run a TSD group as well? That for PMSC to decide. Will MLRC run a TSD with BBR? No, our time line right now is too tight and we are way too short of workers. 6 - Doubling the car count does not half the cost per ralliest. Events pay a per car insurance levy (most of the entry fee), plus a per car road damage levy for performance events. This is the way we balance the insurance cost out. If GCFR had to pay the full insurance cost in 05 they would have lost their shirt. If BBR had to pay the full insurance cost in 06 we would have lost our shirt. These levy's are totaled at the end of the year by CARS and RSO and the per car levy's are then adjusted accordingly for the next year Allowing for events to survive dips in entries. Again coming to meetings and asking questions will help here. A lot of the things we do, are done for very practical reasons Bryn Speaking as john Q rally enthusiast. |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by dtompsett on 03/19/7 at 14:17:42 6: Not sure how 2*Entries = 1/2 CC (cost to competitor)... there are other factors... it's not X cost / total entries * profit = CC... you have to factor in the cost each car adds to an event. Yes, it does have the potential to lower costs... but not by that much... don't expect $100 entry fees to performance rallies. Perhaps more thought on how to attract series sponsors... how to maximize a sponsor's return on investment. 5: Not factoring in events that require turn-arounds at the ends of stage (GFCR, BB... where you also now have to find a space to park 20 extra cars)... The amount of time you have added to keep each stage road closed may end up removing stages... even if you ignore the potential loss of workers (possibly 15 of the 20 cars entered would have been workers for that rally)... Figure a typical Pines stage... even if you run it once... it's already hard for anyone working an afternoon stage to work the night stage... add another 40-60min (20 cars @ 2min each). And... what's the point? Put a roll bar in my car, drive the road at a reduced speed, just for practice... why not just drive the road a week later after the rally is over? Zero entry fee, drive whatever speed I want. Plus, how do you regulate the 'class'... how does the kid driving the STi differ any from the middle-aged guy in a fwd 323? 1-4: I see this as in interesting intro to performance rally. Let me drive an event where I'm not worried about how fast to drive, but the focus is on timing... and not arriving at the exact time... teach me performance rally timing... simulate a control gone bad... checkin/checkout times... all that stuff. As a driver, I want to know what's happening on the other side of the car... I learned to navigate before I began driving the ORRC series... I'd love to learn how to do the timing before I begin driving the performance stuff... makes life a lot easier if you've got a novice navigator and they're not feeling so great at the end of a stage. |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by Anthony_T on 03/19/7 at 17:24:19 I want to comment on the TSD aspect of Galway and novice events. 1) In principle I think that having a TSD event on a closed road is an interesting idea and I would jumped all over that if I was still competing in TSD rallies. From my experience at Galway this year I did not see it as affecting the performance competition in an unacceptable way (in fact, I found the social aspect at the turnaround quite enjoyable). However... 2) Rightly or wrongly, beginners rely much more on the experience of the organizers in determining what circumstances are safe to run without safety equipment. For this reason I think that safety needs to be the top concern when it is open to novice competitors using cars without safety equipment. When people get hurt, any growth in the sport will be nullified by those that retire from competition as a result of losing faith that organizers always have the competitor's safety in mind when designing events. As for running Close Course TSD as a stand alone or as part of a performance rally, that is discussion best had at a club meeting (hint, hint, nudge, nudge) as there are several logistical "pros" and "cons" that are event specific. |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by nhibbert on 03/19/7 at 18:08:08 What I'd like to see is a practice session or rally class with a prepped rally car (or cars) available for rent. :D But who would sacrifice their car? |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by PeterWatt on 03/19/7 at 18:34:12 Again, Hijacking the thread - Sorry Fred, and also not being a beginner (I've not been too active the past year but I have been down a rally road or two). So many people make the assumption the growth is good. Often growth is the measure of success. If we hung two pedofiles last year and 4 this year then we have growth. That is good. Did we have 100% growth or 50% growth? I can make a case for both. My main point - forgive the attempt at lighteneing the situation - I don't believe that we can assume growth is always good. There comes a critical time when just one more (competitor, event, meeting, person, whatever) causes the need for a complete reorganization. Take insurance for an example: A 40 km event costs x dollars. Add 8 km. - still x dollars. Go to 51 km and the insurance goes to 1.5x. That cost is added on to entry fees. So a 49,9 km event entry is $325 and a 52 km event is 425. Those last 2.1 km cost a lot of coin. Adding just 10 competitors to an event adds considerably more than just 10 minutes at each turn-around. Sweep is more than likely delayed by increased extraction. Work load is magnified for registrars and scrutineers. Banquet hall facilities - especially in rural areas are stretched. GCFR is at the limit in that respect. When we ask for growth do we mean more car count? more events? more "profits?" Rob has plans this year for GCFR to grow in length and time. That means overnight accommodation for crews and workers, addition fuel and tire expense, lighting requirements increased entry fees. Sometimes those elements of growth are not universally welcomed. I'm not saying that growth is bad but I am cautioning that growth is not without issues that should be considered. Cheers, pw |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by Leo on 03/19/7 at 20:37:08 Quote:
Sir, I couldn't have said it better. While new blood and new ideas might have a queer way to voice themselves, at the end of the day we are the new generation that's going to be on the scene in 10, 20 and 30 years. Same way as we have to hold our temper back and play by the rules, respecting traditional ways to run things, old-timers have to accept that we are used to slightly different ways to get what we want. We are used to make rules that help the sport, not bend the sport to follow rules. Quote:
+1. Possibly, as time goes by, and more immigrants invade this society, things will change. Quote:
Doug, how on Earth could you think of such a thing!? Quote:
I would, what’s your offer? |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by AlanO on 03/19/7 at 21:05:09 dtompsett wrote on 03/19/7 at 14:17:42:
Because landowners and townships get very pissed off if people go bombing around stage roads. Then road permissions are denied. Then stages are cancelled. And events disappear. Road permissions are very hard to get, and very easy to lose. |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by AlanO on 03/19/7 at 21:36:08 CrazyLeo wrote on 03/19/7 at 20:37:08:
I don't think you'll find many people who are against new ideas to improve the sport. The problem here is simply the way the message is being delivered. Personally, I really do think that there are some great ideas being discussed, and that they are definitely worth trying. But when the proponent of some of these ideas insists on distorting the truth, then the good ideas are wasted because the credibility of the presenter is brought into question - and he alienates those who would be willing to help him. |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by SteveH on 03/19/7 at 21:52:29 Hey guys, I'm fairly new to rally and I like the ideas that Fred is suggesting. I do think you all should try to work things out a bit better, and I dunno if over the forums is the best place to do it. Even the phone would be better. So to respond to the topics question, this is what I have to say. My car is not caged, and it won't be anytime soon as I'm still paying for it. But I don't mind driving it hard down gravel roads. I for one, do NOT find NavX events interesting at all. Yes the roads are nice, but I could go on a lovely drive any time I want to. I have a map, and I can find nice roads and put them all together and make a route. I don't need help with that. And I do realize that some people actually like having tricky directions and, getting lost is maybe fun for them. I do NOT like getting turned around and lost. I'd rather go down town Toronto and get lost while try to find a parking spot than get lost while I'm doing a "rally" event. Just my opinion. I did the Lanark DriveX and LOVED it, even though it wasn't quite challenging enough. Yes yes, I know, its not a performance rally. That was a brisk night jog to me. The biggest scare I had was that big stupid white dog! And I do understand that because the Fast and Furious wanna be's have messed up everything, that now that by-law exists, and DriveX events are gone. That really STINKS. I went to the Bancroft RallyX and was quite disapointed at the conditions. I was on the start line, and the Ford Ranger TRUCK that was in front of me came limping up out of the "pit" with a hole in the radiator from a rock. I then questioned why the heck I was about to drive my car into the "pit". What I'm saying is, how are people going to be attracted to an event that should be a baja race. No offence to anyone, I know they are using what they've got, but its way to rough to be fun. Isn't there somewhere else they can run these things so instant ruts don't happen?? Maybe close a backroad somewhere?? I don't have an answer, but theres got to be better than a "pit". And about the safty issues with novices needing extra help so they don't crash. Although I don't want anyone to get hurt, especially the reputation of the sport, crashing is part of the learning curve. And if you are continually crashing then maybe you shouldn't be driving. Try co-driving instead. Sorry if that sounds mean, but thats how it is. However, I think that we can take a lesson from the Solo guys who, at the begining of the season, hold a school for the beginers and teach them the basics of racing. Fred's idea's of rally schools would be a good start. It should only take a lesson or two from a guy who knows his stuff to teach the beginners how to rally safely. And one guy said earlier on, about the people running the performance TSD and being quicker that some of the actual competitors in the actuall rally. Well what does that show you? Obviously there are guys who are quite capable of making the jump to Performace Rally, but just can't for some reason (prolly $$$ if I was to guess). So Fred is right to try to help those guys get into performance rally races. Those guys are probably the future of the sport, so why not help them out. Maybe one of them could even represent Canada in the WRC!! So come on guys, lets help each other out here. |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by Wedge on 03/19/7 at 22:48:01 It takes money to race. That is an unavoidable truth. I think if you were to poll all the people that want to compete but do not, the number one reason would be lack of money. Vehicles need to be well prepared, and safety equipment is mandatory. Creating beginner schools, and a progressive ladder into performance rally will not change that. Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea, and should definately be implemented. But I think it will only help people who would have rallied anyway. I don't think it will be effective at introducing new people to the sport. Due to rules, and insurance, and common sense, we are only allowed to go so fast before cages and other safety equipment become mandatory. Cost is the true limiting factor for beginners, not knowledge or skill. I say this jokingly, but it's probably true: It would be far better for the sport if we were all to take marketing courses, rather than driving courses. |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by rosswood on 03/19/7 at 23:03:45 We are used to make rules that help the sport, not bend the sport to follow rules. (Leo) Advice to Novices - A sport with no rules will not survive. Of course the rules have to serve the sport also. The one message that keeps recurring in all these threads more often than anything else from many different people is that the newcomers are more than welcome to express their ideas, but that if they want anything to come of them, they have to learn the appropriate channels for doing so. Posting a bunch of ideas on a forum generates some good discussion, but most likely will see very little come of it, especially if they are presented in a critical manner. It is also very important to check your facts before posting; otherwise you lose all credibility and your great ideas get buried with the rubbish. Don't let the good ones be wasted like that. Also keep focused on concepts and never get into personal attacks. If you want your ideas to happen, bring them to the club leaders to talk about them. Some of your ideas are excellent and can be brought into effect; others will not be possible for reasons that will be explained to you. For example, after 911 rally in Canada almost died because we were having great difficulty getting insurance for our events. We were lucky to get it at all, so it is extremely important to follow the requirements of the insurance policy, which means following our own rules. If our rules need changing there is a proper procedure for doing that. We went through a very valuable exercise a year or two ago called Growth Meetings. Everyone was invited to come and talk about what new ideas could be implemented to improve the sport. Many great ideas came from that. Some of those have been tried already; others are still to be tried, waiting for people to provide some leadership in making them come alive. But if you want your ideas to happen, you must also be willing to help make them happen. This is all being done by volunteers. |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by robin on 03/20/7 at 07:22:25 Sideburns Steve wrote on 03/19/7 at 21:52:29:
Crashing is part of the game - but I think most would agree that we should keep the crashing confined to cars that are properly outfitted with safety gear. (and I do co-drive) Sideburns Steve wrote on 03/19/7 at 21:52:29:
It shows me that there are guys in unrestricted turbo cars (likely modified?) w/o a cage going too fast. If a 90hp Scirocco (being generous - I know) needs a cage etc - doesn't a 200+hp Subaru? This isn't *about* whether they/their car can go fast - it's about what is safe and it's about an activity that may 1) jeopardize our insurance coverage 2) harm our public profile 3) endanger our road permissions or 4)get somebody hurt -- All things that could end performance rallying. Nobody has a *right* to do what we do - it can disappear like 'that'. Re: Fred. I am acquainted with Fred and I support his aims. The structure that's in place can and has led to stagnation (part of the reason for having growth mtgs) - some of the stuff we're reading is probably nothing more than frustration - but a couple of things come to mind: 1) this *is* a not-for-profit undertaking which depends exclusively on volunteers and is almost entirely underwritten by the competitors/organizers and the volunteers themselves. We aren't making pizzas or convincing little old ladies to continually switch mutual funds - there is no boss, there are no shareholders. There are stakeholders - stakeholders include everyone involved who makes this thing happen. "Everyone" requires structure - the structure is the club. This thing is no one person and no one person can operate alone w/o offending other stakeholders - some of whom have been around since this thing started. 2) the rules sometimes seem restrictive. I think it's a huge mistake to start-off with "I just want to go fast in my car w/o spending the time and money" - and then look for a way to manipulate or push the rules - come up with events that appear to follow the insurance requirements - the acid test is this: if someone is grievously injured and insurance has to make a max payout - will they cover it? Will anyone get sued? organizer: "Well it was just a TSD rally." ins. investigator: "These cars were going as fast as your real rally cars - somebody's been very seriously injured here." organizer: "No - they had a target time of 10% less than the maximum allowable speed for the road" ins. investigator: "I really don't understand what you're talking about and I don't care. These cars have no cages or any of the other safety equipment specified" organizer: "We didn't think they needed it - they're beginners trying to get used to performance rallying." ins. investigator: "we're dropping you from coverage and publishing a memo to the insurance industry specifying same - also, you're on your own with the injury claim -we're not covering it." |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by gully on 03/20/7 at 07:46:39 I have read all the comments from various people some of whom are very knowledgeable about the sport. Some of whom are lacking some vital history. I would suggest to all who are really concerned about this sport and its direction to get involved. This Saturday March 24th is the RSO AGM for 2006 how many of you can we expect to be there?? How many of you can we expect to offer themselves for election and be willing to take on the many hours of work that the Executive [like all the club Exec's and Organizers give each year] It is very easy to be involved for a few months and say everything needs changing. However as many others have advised we have to work within what is permitted by insurance. I know myself I have floated ideas to find that we cannot obtain insurance for them. Link for AGM notice http://www.mlrc.ca/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=news;action=display;num=1171902910 I trust we will see you all there!! Pete Gulliver |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by Ferdinand on 03/20/7 at 15:48:29 fweidner wrote on 03/17/7 at 10:31:40:
I've been in rallying for quite a bit more than 2 years but, compared to the level of knowledge, skill, and experience of so many other people on this discussion forum, deep down I do, and probably always will, continue to think of myself as a Novice. Despite what some of you have posted in response to Fred's comments, I applaud his obvious enthusiasm for the sport, his initiative in proposing new ideas, and his guts in posting his ideas here for public discussion. It is a discussion forum after all. Besides that, I still owe Fred for stopping to pull me out of a snowbank after I made a mistake during the Criterium des Neiges rally. Despite the two minutes lost towing us out, Fred went on to take first place overall in that event. Anthony_T wrote on 03/19/7 at 17:24:19:
That really is an excellent point and something that cannot be stressed enough. I had taken part in many navex rallies before hearing about the winter drivex series and finally taking part in my first OWR. It scared the crap out of me. Being a novice to this type of event, I really had no idea beforehand how intense the experience would be. But I was hooked. It was only after several times competing that I came to appreciate how much effort and organisational skill goes into preparing a top-notch event like this so that it can be run as safely as it is. It's definitely not a venue to simply turn loose a bunch of lunatics in fast cars on fun roads. A lot of thought goes into designating and enforcing proper Quiet Zones, marking Caution instructions in the route book where required, setting realistic CAS speeds, and mapping and scheduling a route using interesting and remote roads at an hour when we are least likely to meet oncoming traffic. As a Novice during my first OWR, just trying not to fall off the road, I didn't get much chance to think about any of that. But in each subsequent year I came to appreciate more and more how much responsibilty rests on the organizer's shoulders to ensure the event is run safely. |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by Craig_Hamm on 04/03/7 at 11:50:04 All I can say is if you don't like the way something is being done, run, or not, get off your whiny ass and PARTICIPATE in the club meetings, go to the AGM, attend RSO meetings, write for your newsletter, get elected, help an organiser (in a club sanctioned event), otherwise you're just pissing in the wind. This rally thing has been a round a LONG time (50 years just in Canada). The structures built to govern the sport, while never perfect, are there for good reasons, and come from decades of lessons learned. Going against the system will only get you shut out of it. Organisers have no tolerance for people they perceive as a risk to their event. When you act outside of the organisation, you're on your own (e.g. insurance), meanwhile putting at jeapordy the thing you love (rallying). When you work within the organisation you have a large support network with an established record, sort of useful shuld you need to go to court (and we haven't, because the organisation is setup to avoid exactly that). I can be pretty whiny sometimes. But, instead of just bitching and pointing fingers, I got elected, I organised, I attend the meetings, I set policy, rules, made series, etc, all WITHIN the framework. We resurrected rally in Ottawa after many dead years. All WITHIN the framework. There were notable attendee absenses at the AGM. It just means you're not serious. Steve, you had plenty of lates, too, on Lanark, stop bragging. ;) Craig |
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Title: Re: Let's get some feedback from Novices Post by SteveH on 04/03/7 at 12:24:41 C. Hamm wrote on 04/03/7 at 11:50:04:
Sorry Craig. I just reread what I wrote and I do sound like a jerk the way I worded that. That event was challenging and awesome! Best rally event I've ever been in! What I was refering to was that I didn't need to push myself to meet the CAS. AS in, I was within my "comfort zone" the enitre time (were you should be of course). Yes I was late a bunch of times, but I was just guessing at my average speed by looking at my speedometer every 10 seconds or so. Sometimes I guessed high and sometimes I guess low, but I did enjoy myself!! In comparison, we did a DriveX in Quebec a few weeks later and zeroed the first four check points cause we used the cruise control!! We stopped then becuase the roads were to rough (potholes), and we were to tired to drive straight :) I hope the DriveX events will be able to return once the Street Racing laws get all settled. |
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