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Message started by jgardhouse on 04/06/8 at 12:32:28

Title: Legality of after market Harnesses
Post by jgardhouse on 04/06/8 at 12:32:28

Whats the dealio with running after market harnesses in Ontario??? Someone said this is that one can get written a ticket for.

What my research has found me:

Racing harnesses are not DOT approved. Replacement seat belts cannot be marked “not for highway use” and the anchor points must be of adequate strength.
HTA 106(2) – Drive with seat belt assembly removed / inoperative / modified - $85.00/$110.00
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Statutes/English/90h08_e.htm#106.(2)

Last I checked, my FIA harnesses don't have a off-road only disclousure...

Title: Re: Legality of after market Harnesses
Post by big_Ian on 04/06/8 at 16:52:53

your not supposed to driving your rally car around town willy nilly.....

not only belts are a prob
wait till a cop deceides that your car has been modified for street racing ...cage...seats....gravel tires

my understanding is they can take it away and crush it with the new law...

save it for rallys and sanctioned practice days and buy a trailer

Title: Re: Legality of after market Harnesses
Post by Anthony_T on 04/06/8 at 18:20:11


big_Ian wrote on 04/06/8 at 16:52:53:
your not supposed to driving your rally car around town willy nilly.....


Not that I've done it unecessarily but you have to admit, it is a little fun, that is, until you attract undue attention, either from the local constabulary or the local street racers.

One could either make their rally car look like your average Buick or
buy aftermarket belts.  

Not all of us are fortunate enough to be able to tow at all times.  Many first or second timers (or more) drive their car to the event.  

Title: Re: Legality of after market Harnesses
Post by jgardhouse on 04/06/8 at 20:13:25


big_Ian wrote on 04/06/8 at 16:52:53:
your not supposed to driving your rally car around town willy nilly.....


I've had my caged car for about a month now, it has a whopping 6KMs on it since I bought it - that was to drive it to storage... Not exactly driving around willy nilly by any stretch of the imagination...


big_Ian wrote on 04/06/8 at 16:52:53:
not only belts are a prob
wait till a cop deceides that your car has been modified for street racing ...cage...seats....gravel tires

my understanding is they can take it away and crush it with the new law...


http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_070455_e.htm

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90h08_e.htm

Some good reading, if your bored, have nothing better to do and/or generally lack much of a life.

Then again, someone else with more power (the cop) also interprets the above, so all that may be a moot point (aka make friends / pay a lawyer and keep said number in speed dial, as I do).



big_Ian wrote on 04/06/8 at 16:52:53:
save it for rallys and sanctioned practice days and buy a trailer

Already paid up for the May 3rd test day.

I'm a student. I shared a rented <500 SQ FT basement apartment with three guys. I take the bus to get my groceries, since I don't have a daily driver. I'd love to have a 5th wheel, a soooper bitchin' set of SnapOn tools and a decent jack, and so on, but sometimes, the world just hates you and you don't win the lotto each and every week. Do what you can, have fun with what you have. Buying a truck, trailer and insuring it, just to tow a box o-junk 200-300 kms 3 times a year?  Nothing I would like to mis-appropriate my money on more then that!

The first item I bought for my car was a drivers side sun visor... Why? Because the law says their should be one. I've spent 75,000 + KMs (I don't commute) behind the wheel since I got my license with not as much as being stopped by police (no mean feat for a young male in a sporty/modified vehicle, or so I hear). I intend to keep it this way.

There are a number of folks who put a likely 15,000+ KMs a year, on public roads, in caged cars. I've even seen at least one of these cars driven with what I like to call "inappropriate enthusiasm" on public roads. Having said this, while it is not advisable to drive a caged car without a helmet, its within ones rights, so do as one wishes. Assuming everyones primary concern is with the so-called "image" or attraction of undue attention to rallyists, I can give a long list of items that have the potential to have a much greater impact and an even longer list of individuals who are guilty of said items. (And thats not even breaking into the stuff I've seen during rallies as both a participant, spectator and volunteer).

The intent of my question was to ascertain if my vehicle currently adheres to the HTA. If the current belts do not, then I will purchase stock belts and install them (Use however, is another quandry). Obviously, since I did pose the question in the first place, an answer at some juncture would be appreciated.

<END utterly useless rant>

Title: Re: Legality of after market Harnesses
Post by RyanHuber on 04/06/8 at 21:38:50

Reality is, I don't think you're allowed to remove or modify your stock belts. If you can do it, get a set of stock belts and wear them over the harnesses when you're street driving.

Title: Re: Legality of after market Harnesses
Post by big_Ian on 04/06/8 at 21:47:49

(1)  No person shall drive on a highway a motor vehicle in which a seat belt assembly required under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada) at the time that the vehicle was manufactured or imported into Canada has been removed, rendered partly or wholly inoperative, modified so as to reduce its effectiveness or is not operating properly through lack of maintenance.

I guess by putting in racing belts you have a)removed
b) modified ,but not to reduce its effectivness....for sure its not clear which means it will depend on the officers good will and mood...not always a good bet

the good news is there is a lovely stock 323 decaying in my backyard  (which needs to be picked up before my spring sale first of may)
I bet it has said stock belts....

Title: Re: Legality of after market Harnesses
Post by overthehill on 04/06/8 at 21:56:39

Or, instead of wearing them OVER the harness, you can wear them on the road and then wear harness when necessary. Two advantages:
1/ Cops can see the strap going from the seat to the door -- lesser chance they will stop you.
2/ Much easier to get that sandwich from the glove compartment while driving...

Title: Re: Legality of after market Harnesses
Post by RyanHuber on 04/06/8 at 22:32:05

The big problem with that is that the stock belt will do a very poor job of holding you into a race seat, unless you're threading the belt through the belt holes on the race seat.

Title: Re: Legality of after market Harnesses
Post by Jeff_Hagan on 04/06/8 at 23:07:08


RyanHuber wrote on 04/06/8 at 22:32:05:
The big problem with that is that the stock belt will do a very poor job of holding you into a race seat, unless you're threading the belt through the belt holes on the race seat.

Apparently, the HTA requires that your seat belt be worn firm against your hips and torso, so just strapping the belt around the seat would probably cause issues in that regard, as well as the safety risks you mentioned.

I think there might be a grey region in the law.  HTA Subsection 106.1 refers to the Motor Vehicle Safety Act, but the rest of Section 106 only refers to a "seat belt assembly", defined in 106.9 only as "a device or assembly composed of straps, webbing or similar material that restrains the movement of a person in order to prevent or mitigate injury to the person and includes a pelvic restraint or a pelvic restraint and a torso restraint." - there are no mention of any standards for the seat belt assembly except in subsection 1.

I think an argument could be made that 106.2, 106.5 and the other sections of the act that actually spell out when, where and how a person has to wear a seat belt allow for the seat belt to be a racing harness.  I'm not sure that there's an actual requirement that the seat belt assembly that you have to keep because of 106.1 is the same one you have to wear because of 106.2 & 106.5.

Now... whether a cop or a judge would agree with the argument, I have no idea.



The way the seat belt law is worded has always struck me as strange.  The way I read it, technically, I'm breaking the law whenever I take one of the bench seats (and half of the seat belt assembly along with it) out of my van.

Title: Re: Legality of after market Harnesses
Post by Jim_Stevens on 04/07/8 at 00:54:02

In 2006, the shop that I had taken the 93 Swift to for a safety check, called in a local MTO inspector.  The shop was concerned that the removal of the rear seat and rear seat belts made the car illegal under the HTA.

I wasn't there but I was told that the Inspector after a careful look at the car saw no problems.  It had the racing seats and full six point harnesses for driver and codriver at that time as well as the roll cage.  I may have got lucky in that the Inspector may have been unusally reasonable but who is to know his reasons - it passed and the shop issued the safety.

The reality is of course that our seats and harnesses ARE much safer than most standard equipment.  

For what its worth.

Jim

Title: Re: Legality of after market Harnesses
Post by jgardhouse on 04/07/8 at 07:27:40


Jim_Stevens wrote on 04/07/8 at 00:54:02:
The reality is of course that our seats and harnesses ARE much safer than most standard equipment.  


Except there is a honking great steel bar for you to mash your head on  :o

Title: Re: Legality of after market Harnesses
Post by jgardhouse on 04/07/8 at 07:29:02


big_Ian wrote on 04/06/8 at 21:47:49:
the good news is there is a lovely stock 323 decaying in my backyard  (which needs to be picked up before my spring sale first of may)
I bet it has said stock belts....


Hey! I was told that thing was *mint*  ;D



Title: Re: Legality of after market Harnesses
Post by gully on 04/07/8 at 08:31:21

A few years ago Guy I know got pulled over for wearing a 5 point harness. Late at night Honda with a coffee can exhaust.  Go figure.

Regardless he was charged with not having removed his factory belts. Went to Court and Judge [JP ??] dismissed charge as it made better sense to the Judge to wear a Racing harness instead of factory belts.

Last week I found details case number etc of this case while Spring cleaning. I think I kept it but finding it well thats another story

Pete g

Title: Re: Legality of after market Harnesses
Post by jgardhouse on 04/07/8 at 08:48:58


gully wrote on 04/07/8 at 08:31:21:
A few years ago Guy I know got pulled over for wearing a 5 point harness. Late at night Honda with a coffee can exhaust.  Go figure.

Regardless he was charged with not having removed his factory belts. Went to Court and Judge [JP ??] dismissed charge as it made better sense to the Judge to wear a Racing harness instead of factory belts.


I got thinking about it.

Say one installed (or didn't remove) stock seat belts and out of safety, only wore the 5/6 PT harness. With the stock belts, you could be charged with not wearing a seatbelt, instead of a non-operable charge. The latter does not involve demerit points as I understand it.

Annoying since I got looking at crash videos for the Scroth ASM belt systems for street cars...

Title: Re: Legality of after market Harnesses
Post by Jeff_Hagan on 04/07/8 at 12:30:55


Jim_Stevens wrote on 04/07/8 at 00:54:02:
The reality is of course that our seats and harnesses ARE much safer than most standard equipment.  


...when they're new and/or properly maintained/re-webbed as needed.  

The law has to take into account the people who would squeak by with just the bare minimum.  While I'd sooner trust my life to a brand new 5-point harness than a brand new 3-point seat belt, I'd trust a 20-year-old unmaintained seat belt over a 20-year-old unmaintained racing harness.

Title: Re: Legality of after market Harnesses
Post by darryl on 04/11/8 at 18:51:37


Jeff_Hagan wrote on 04/07/8 at 12:30:55:
 While I'd sooner trust my life to a brand new 5-point harness than a brand new 3-point seat belt, I'd trust a 20-year-old unmaintained seat belt over a 20-year-old unmaintained racing harness.


Jeff, I’m glad you mentioned belt misuse and age.

I work for Transport Canada Road Safety Defect Investigations. In the next month or so I’ll be starting a research study on the effects of age and damage on passenger car seat belts. The study will be looking at clean aged belts to see what the current tension strength is and comparing to new belts to see if there has been any strength loss with time. The study will also be cataloging the effects of various damage/contamination to belts (e.g. Pinched, frayed, blood, mud, dog chewed, etc).
During the passenger car study, I have permission to run a parallel study on the age effect on racing harnesses. As we all know to well race belts cannot be used after five years. I want to take old belts and pull them to the point of failure. I will gladly share the results of the study with any racer that is interested.
So please keep your old belts no matter what condition they are in. Anyone who has old belts they would like to donate to the study it would greatly be appreciated.

Sorry to run of topic a bit. Back on the subject of race harness in street driven cars.

Back in 2002 I had a Talon that I raced in P4. It was my only car so I drove it every day. No stock belts and full cage. I was pulled over twice, once for speeding and once for entering a bus lane by accident.
Both times the officer said boy you must feel safe in this car. I didn’t get charged with anything. Although we did have a serious talk about the speeding. Ask me another time and I’ll tell you the whole story.
I think I got luck both times. You could probably argue race harness safety in court and win but why spend time in court.
Just put in the stock belts and wear them over your 5-points.

-Darryl

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