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MLRC Forum
https://www.mlrc.ca/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl General >> Rally >> Rally lighting question https://www.mlrc.ca/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1230562330 Message started by Slowpoke on 12/29/8 at 09:52:10 |
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Title: Rally lighting question Post by Slowpoke on 12/29/8 at 09:52:10 A question for all of you folk who have been down this route before... People in the rally community are telling me that you can't roof mount lights for Nav Rally because of the HTA. I can't find anything in the HTA indicating this. I'm well aware of the National Rally rule forbidding it for Special Stage rallies. I'm looking for an HTA reference only please. Ontario primarily, but perhaps Quebec too. Thanks! |
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by RyanHuber on 12/29/8 at 10:34:43 I was sure there was a rule in there about them not being allowed higher than the lower edge of the windscreen, but now I can't find that reference... Interesting... |
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by Jeff_Hagan on 12/29/8 at 10:36:47 Normally, you'd be able to look it up at www.e-laws.gov.on.ca, however, the site doesn't seem to be working properly right now. I'm pretty sure I've seen the rule about headlamp height. IIRC, it's in one of the regulations to the HTA, not the main body of the HTA itself. I think the regulation is titled "Vehicle Equipment", but I can't be certain without actually checking, which apparently the government doesn't want me to do right now. ;) I have absolutely no idea what the Quebec rules are about anything like this. |
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by Oddball343 on 12/30/8 at 01:26:15 One would think with the amount of 4x4 trucks that have large light bars mounted over the cab of their truck that that particular rule isn't well read at all. It doesn't actually seem to be covered under "Lamps" subsection in the "Equipment" section. Also have a question myself. "Strength of front lamps (9) No motor vehicle shall carry on the front thereof more than four lighted lamps that project a beam having an intensity of over 300 candela. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 62 (9)." Anyone have any clue how they care to measure the candela of headlamps or what they're looking for here? |
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by Slowpoke on 12/30/8 at 08:57:10 Oddball343 wrote on 12/30/8 at 01:26:15:
I think it's measured about as scientifically as "loud exhaust". ::) However... if you think about it... that's even more reason to mount lights on the roof, because that's not the "front" of the car. |
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by Jeff_Hagan on 12/30/8 at 13:01:35 Slowpoke wrote on 12/30/8 at 08:57:10:
You may be opening a can of worms with that one, because there are restrictions about where on a car you can place lights of various colours. I wouldn't be surprised if mounting white lights on places other than the "front" of your car (however you define "front") is illegal as well; making that argument with a cop or a judge might be a matter of jumping from the frying pan into the fire. |
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by Anthony_T on 12/30/8 at 20:56:22 I'm responding from memory (and experience) so I may be mistaken. If the HTA states that you can have no more then 4 front mounted lights it is hard to add extra lights while still complying with the rules. I can't think of a car where you could legally add more then 2 more then what came with the car. For 2 days, I had a setup similar to what James Drake had on his mk3 Golf. 4 hellas in addition to single headlights. Before I used them even once I had been given a 110$ fine. (This kind officer stopped to check on me as I was changing a flat. When I was done, he radioed his supervisor to inquire about my lights, he came back and asked me to turn them on, then gave me a ticket.) I guess my point is that if you're trying to do this legally - in my opinion - it's hardly possible. If you want to do it, you just have to accept the possibility of a fine. If you do choose to add extra lights, I would keep them covered as much as possible. My 2 cents. Anthony |
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by gully on 12/31/8 at 09:13:43 Quote:
I think that you could have challenged this in court 'Your Honour I only use these lights when offroad' Regarding Candela there is no police officer who can calculate this. I did have an Electrical Engineeer crunch some numbers for me several years ago. After confering with others in his office and a couple of days of calculations. They arrived at the opinion that lights as supplied with vehicle are at maximum candela. I am sure we have people on Forum that could calculate this Pete g |
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by Anthony_T on 12/31/8 at 14:10:40 "I think that you could have challenged this in court 'Your Honour I only use these lights when offroad" I agree that I could have had the charge reduced or revoked had I been able to attend a trial. At the time though, it was cheaper to pay up then miss a day's pay to make my case. |
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by soundcatz on 01/06/9 at 00:28:24 From vague, vague memory, I seem to recall something in the HTA stating that the headlights of a vehicle must fall within a certain height, and I could be way off on this one, but I think the maximum could have been 120cm. I remember this being brought up in a debate over lifted 4x4's blinding people... and there was also a reference made to those 'headlight relocation' kits that move the truck's OEM lighting down into the bumper. Edit: Wow, should have read the OHTA before posting. I could be thinking of the Alta HTA. Just went through the lamps section and found no such restrictions on height, could only find this restriction on the number of lights: Quote:
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by Slowpoke on 01/06/9 at 09:01:36 Right, so you can have eight lights on the front, as long as there's not more than four on at a time. |
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by Oddball343 on 01/06/9 at 18:24:32 It also isn't very specific on whether it's 300 total or 300 each ..... |
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by gully on 01/06/9 at 19:10:09 I really think 300 candela is for total lights all inclusive From what I can find out 100 watts equals 120 candela So two high beam plus two driving lights at 55 watts each you will be pretty close to the 300 candela number. HOWEVER when you get pulled over the officer will not have a clue what your total Candela number is and if he feels lights are to bright its ticket time. Up to you to go prove he is wrong in court |
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by Oddball343 on 01/06/9 at 19:55:50 Absolutely. Just thought I'd point out the vagueness of some of the HTA stuff :) |
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by jgardhouse on 01/06/9 at 20:50:32 Roof pod mounts on the Mazda, I can see it now :P |
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by nhibbert on 01/07/9 at 07:22:35 My understanding is if you have more than four bright lights (over 300 candela) you have to keep them covered when not in use so you don't accidentally turn them on when on a public road. The same goes for roof mounted lights. You can't use them on a public road so you have to keep them covered. |
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by Jeff_Hagan on 01/07/9 at 13:08:30 gully wrote on 01/06/9 at 19:10:09:
Not necessarily. It's not a straight conversion from watts to candela. If you have a fog light, a driving light and a pencil beam all at the same wattage, they'll have different candela values. A candela is a unit of luminous intensity, not luminous flux. Basically, it's a unit of measurement for brightness across some angle and it depends on the output of your bulb as well as the shape of the beam. For a given bulb, the narrower the beam, the higher the luminous intensity... IOW, the higher the candela rating. So, the candela output of a light doesn't just depend on the bulb wattage or brightness, it also depends on the characteristics of the reflector and lens. Also, I may be wrong, but I believe that the 300 candela value is for a single light, not all of them. I think the idea behind the wording used is to exclude marker lights, turn signals, etc., from the number of lights that count toward the four. |
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by MN on 01/07/9 at 14:15:42 Hmm … interesting. IMO, keeping them covered saves you the hassle of being stopped and questioned by a “curious” officer. However, you can’t get ticketed for having them on your vehicle. >:( I mean c’mon, some Jeep Liberty models come with a roof light rack straight out of the assembly plant. Security vehicles have spotlights, similarly, so do tow trucks and buses. Tractors have a pair facing the rear for backing up trailers at night. I’ve seen a guy get ticketed on the 401 for forgetting to turn them off, but not for having them installed. (Obviously commercial vehicle lighting regulations differ slightly.) Also, certain people have strobes that imitate emergency vehicle lighting, which they use for show purposes. There’s no law stating that you can’t have them installed, but there’s one restricting the use of them on public roads. From what I’ve read and researched, the amount of extra lighting allowed on a vehicle, in my understanding, is free. As long as they’re turned OFF when using public roads. So, I think, as long as you stick by the rule that states "every motor vehicle other than a motorcycle shall carry three lighted lamps in a conspicuous position, one on each side of the front of the vehicle which shall display a white or amber light only, and one on the rear of the vehicle which shall display a red light only", you should be good. The rest should be OFF, and then you could have your vehicle literally covered with them, so that when you do go off-road, onto a public parking lot or driveway, (or when no one is looking), you can become that moving sun light beam. 8-) Nonetheless, I agree, it seems way too vague when you hear stories like Anthony_T’s. |
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by Jeff on 01/16/9 at 12:09:09 How many front mounted lights can you have for a night rally?? I was thinking of putting 6 on the front of mine ( 4 striaght and 2 off to the sides) I know your not aloud that maybe on for regular driving but i was going to make the bar on the front removable so when i arrive at the rally I can just quickly mount them and plug them in!!! Thanks. |
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by Anthony_T on 01/16/9 at 21:47:15 Jeff wrote on 01/16/9 at 12:09:09:
Lawfully you are only allowed 4 front mounted lights - rally or no rally. Illegally though, you can do whatever you please. |
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by brynepp on 01/20/9 at 17:32:15 Anthony you are only the 3rd person I have heard this happening too. The first was to I believe JB (yes that JB) in the 70's when some state trooper made him physically remove the lights from his TR8. The second had 4 Bosch 225's and his Volvo High beams on for a little too long for the York region officer's liking. Personally I have been running for 10 years with uncovered lights with no issues and they have saved me from one incident with Bowinckle (a Moose for those too young to remember Rocky and Bowinckle). Please tell me you got the ticket in the GTA I would certainly hope any intelligent officer in the more remote parts of this province would understand the value of the lights in saving ones life..... As for the HTA I was sure it was in there maybe in the CHTA... more research required I guess. Till then just remember to have those kill switches installed and working... Bryn |
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by dtompsett on 01/20/9 at 19:05:15 brynepp wrote on 01/20/9 at 17:32:15:
I actually picked up an off-duty police officer one VERY cold night a couple winters ago. (His diesel Jetta had conked out on the way home... north of Norwood... around 11:30pm) I was in the rally beater... rally computer, 4 Bosch 225's, stripped interior (stock seats and belts). His house was only a few km's away on a sideroad... when I turned on the big lights, he commented on how nice they were and how well they lit up the road. I mentioned what they were used for, how they were wired into the high beams, etc... and he said "If I ever pulled you over at night, I wouldn't have a problem with these at all". That was when I discovered he was an off-duty cop. ::) They aren't all bad. |
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Title: Re: Rally lighting question Post by Anthony_T on 01/20/9 at 22:46:00 Bryn, I am glad to hear I am only the 3rd person you've heard of this happening to. This happened in Parry Sound district, almost 10 years ago. Hopefully they've stopped caring. I just wish I'd looked up the laws Before installing the lights. At least I'd of known what 'could' happen. Funny you mention Buffum being told remove his lights on the spot. I actually offered to do this very thing - Didn't help unfortunately. |
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