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Message started by Donnie on 07/19/10 at 19:40:51

Title: Service crew question?
Post by Donnie on 07/19/10 at 19:40:51

How many persons may be on a service crew ? I have 4 interested parties for GCFR. This is our first Rally, we need all the help we can get.

Title: Re: Service crew question?
Post by dtompsett on 07/19/10 at 20:55:23

As far as I know, there are no restrictions on numbers for service crew. If there were, they would be on a per-event basis, and published in the sup. regs. I believe there is a restriction on number of service vehicles in the service area... to cut down on people hogging all the space.

Example... I crewed a US event for ACP a few years back that limited the number of people allowed to "touch" the car at any one time. Didn't mean I couldn't be helping out, but I was restricted to specific areas, like the service truck grabbing parts/tools/etc... while others worked on the car.

Title: Re: Service crew question?
Post by Donnie on 07/19/10 at 21:03:59

Thank you :)

Title: Re: Service crew question?
Post by Jeff_Hagan on 07/19/10 at 22:32:15

Donnie wrote on 07/19/10 at 19:40:51:

How many persons may be on a service crew ? I have 4 interested parties for GCFR.

No need to worry. There's no limit on service crew in the CARS rules.

Good job on finding four crew, though. :)

Donnie wrote on 07/19/10 at 19:40:51:

This is our first Rally, we need all the help we can get.

Is this your co-driver's first rally, too?

I'll be running with Alexei Stapinski in his Scirocco. He's seed 6 as well (he's an experienced co-driver, but it's his first rally as driver), so we should be pretty close in the running order. Don't be shy about asking for help if you need it. With two co-drivers in the car, we should be able to help you figure out how to calculate your in-time or set the factor in your rally computer. ;D

Title: Re: Service crew question?
Post by Donnie on 07/19/10 at 22:37:31

Thanks Jeff i will pass this info on to Tracy,it will ease her mind some, she's well.... a little nervous as it is her first rally also as a co-driver.

Title: Re: Service crew question?
Post by Jeff_Hagan on 07/19/10 at 23:11:43

BTW - I should probably clarify my last post: there's no limit on the number of people in your service crew, but the supp regs request that each crew only have one service vehicle in the service area.

The supp regs don't give a specific limit for the number of cars your crew brings up and parks outside the service area, but they do say that parking at Rally HQ is going to be tight.

Title: Re: Service crew question?
Post by jgardhouse on 07/20/10 at 06:14:40

Donnie,

I would highly recommend doing your best to find someone experienced in the realm of servicing at rallies - let some of their knowledge rub off on your guys.

I also, if you can, for your first event, try to find a ringer co-driver. I've been a first time driver. I've also been a first time co-driver. I can tell you I made a lot of mistakes doing both, some major, some minor. Did I mention lots? I've also nearly ended up as part of serious incidents due to very green crews - for this reason, I have been toying with the idea of petitioning a CARS rule change to disallow a crew from being both seed 6.

I totally get that its not nearly as fun as driving with a good friend, but when the s#!t hits the fan, having a co-driver that knows exactly what to when you don't is way better then the alternative.

Title: Re: Service crew question?
Post by Donnie on 07/20/10 at 08:50:23

Jamie,

Will i understand your concerns, i do not entirely agree with your solutions.

Firstly i couldn't agree with you more with regard to service crews, my attitude is "go fast comes last", that meaning that i insist that my service crew looks at the car is if they were doing a Safety/Certification for the most part, anything questionable, in steering, brakes, mounting points etc, is tossed if we don't have the parts or its beyond our means/control, we pull out, there's dignity in that :)

On your second point. A properly prepared crew, seed 6 or not, should be able to get through a race, if they are indeed "prepared". My co-driver and myself have worked very hard to get to this point, Rally School, research, endless questions to good people with Rally experience.This is the time to apply what we have learned, to something that we truly enjoy... "RALLY". We're not out to set the world on fire at GCFR, and I'm certainly not going out to drive a car beyond its limits, yes we have limitations, but we'll work within them.

Jamie if you truly wish to be to of any help/assistance to Rally in Ontario you'll find yourself at GCFR offering it up, as opposed to "petitioning a CARS rule change to disallow a crew from being both seed 6". Your experience may well be more of a solution than a "Rule" change.

Hope to see you at GCFR..
Don Morton

Title: Re: Service crew question?
Post by dtompsett on 07/20/10 at 11:11:00

I was a brand new seed6, who co-drove for a new seed6 driver...

Other than the odd calculation error on timing, we kicked butt and won several awards at GCFR.

In the Scirocco at Tall Pines, I was a seed 6 driver (iirc... first event driving) with a seed 6 co-driver (my then gf... now my wife). Couple of timing mistakes, missed half the drivers meeting, etc etc... still finished, had a great time, and she LOVED it. Had never read notes before, but she rarely lost place. We both learned a lot.

And Jamie, wasn't your dad a seed 6 when I co-drove for him (I think I might have been considered a 5B by then??)... he had a fantastic time (as did I).

Title: Re: Service crew question?
Post by solitude99 on 07/20/10 at 13:40:47

I am not sure not allowing new teams (both 6) to run is best of ideas.

Bryce and I ran this year at Lanark our first event ever and we did not really push it and felt somewhat overwhelmed at times by what was expected of us, we did not make any timing errors, and we finished the event (the first one at least) with ok times and had some great fun. We were very lucky in the fact that Bruce Leonard helped us allot by mentoring us. But I found in general anyone we had asked questions to in the community would answer without hesitation...

I think training the seeds sixes better via mentoring or a performance novice school might be a better idea then not allowing them to run.

Derek

Title: Re: Service crew question?
Post by gully on 07/20/10 at 14:00:54

Quote:

How many persons may be on a service crew ? I have 4 interested parties for GCFR. This is our first Rally, we need all the help we can get.

The discussion that High Jacked Donnie's question is of interest and as a RSO Board member and an event Organizer is certainly of interest to me

HOWEVER back to the original question There are no worker limits. All workers must sign Waiver forms If under 18 parental consent waiver.

GCFR will be limiting number of vehicles per service area. Since last year the Community centre has converted what was last year the service area into a fenced Ball Field.

Suggestion if you do have a lot of service worker vehicles [which end up sitting all day] park at 507 end of stage in parking lot or down the Snowmobile trail [to the left] Making sure not not to block trail inside parking lot as that is used as rally car turn around

Pete G
GCFR Coordinator

Title: Re: Service crew question?
Post by Donnie on 07/20/10 at 15:11:20

Thank you Pete, that clarifies where the extra vehicles need to be.We want to try to be as accommodating/respectful as we can to the event coordinators as well as other competitors.A service area map will clear up allotted space questions ,when it is posted.

Title: Re: Service crew question?
Post by Jeff_Hagan on 07/20/10 at 15:27:42

Donnie wrote on 07/20/10 at 15:11:20:

A service area map will clear up allotted space questions ,when it is posted.

FYI - past years, the service area map was more of a conceptual diagram than an actual scale map.

The extra parking area that Pete mentioned is at the stage start/finish, several km south of Rally HQ. Assuming that you're coming from the south, on your way up, it's about 8-9 km north of Flynn's Turn (look for the billboard on the left saying something like "Jeff Parnell Contracting Quarry"). Once you're at Rally HQ, you can get there by following the route book directions to the start of the first stage.

Have a look at the map and directions here: http://gcfr.pmsc.on.ca/spectators/map-and-directions/

Since Pete's telling you to park there, I assume that the bit about towing cars is no longer applicable. ;)

Title: Re: Service crew question?
Post by jgardhouse on 07/20/10 at 16:13:33

Hey Don,

Didn't mean to hijack your thread, sorry.

Very good to hear that you guys have done your homework - and you seem to take the same 'fun first, fast later' approach as me... Its the way to go. I might be slow as heck, but I do have a lot of fun

Things like the RSO co-driver course etc are a great thing - but not required, so its very hard to know who has done the legwork - I've seen people at their first event who clearly didn't read the rule book, as is evidenced by things like poor/inappropriate triangle placement, violation of procedures in fueling zones, plus if you're the car in front, you want to know for sure the car behind you understands the procedures for more serious incidents. Rally America does something along the lines of this - plus having an experienced co-driver means you have many less things to worry about (and there are many!). In any case, very good to hear you're making a solid effort to make sure you're doing your best to be well prepared - you'll do great.

Galway is a VERY beginner friendly rally - and a very fun road to boot (my absolute favourite), very well organized, compact route etc. You'll have fun, trust me :)

I have yet to entirely perfect being in multiple places at once, but if I get it working reliably by Galway...

Title: Re: Service crew question?
Post by Donnie on 07/20/10 at 16:45:35

Jeff_Hagan wrote on 07/20/10 at 15:27:42:

Donnie wrote on 07/20/10 at 15:11:20:

A service area map will clear up allotted space questions ,when it is posted.

Thanks again Jeff

Gave Tracy your message from last evening, and she gave a sign of relief...

Title: Re: Service crew question?
Post by AlanO on 07/20/10 at 17:13:09

Service crew - it's great to have four people to service one car but it's really important that they are organized. Designate one person (usually the most experienced) to be the crew chief, who delegates responsibilities and runs the show. Usually, one person goes under the hood, one guy takes each side, and the fourth can do parts/tool runs between the car and the truck.

The crew chief should meet you at the car when you're waiting to check in, get a rundown of what needs to be done, then he/she should return to the service area and assign tasks to everyone.

Make sure you have enough tools to support your mechanics (you'll need duplicates of the basics - wrenches, hammers etc) otherwise they can't be very helpful.

Communication is really important to ensure everything gets covered and nothing gets overlooked (or done twice). There have been occasions where the wheel nuts on one side of the car get torqued twice, while the other side doesn't get torqued at all!

Co-driver - might be best to forget about pacenotes for your first event and run tulips. There is a lot on your plates already, and running notes might be a bit overwhelming for a first-timer.

Your co-driver's priorities for the first event should be:

1. Stay on route
2. Stay on time

Title: Re: Service crew question?
Post by jgardhouse on 07/20/10 at 17:32:48

AlanO wrote on 07/20/10 at 17:13:09:

Co-driver - might be best to forget about pacenotes for your first event and run tulips. There is a lot on your plates already, and running notes might be a bit overwhelming for a first-timer.

I ran tulips for my first event as a driver (Bear 3 years ago), and I recommend it, even with an experienced co-driver. In my mind, it forces you to take it easy and focus on the basics (having fun!). My first event as a co-driver, I sucked big time - its a lot going on, I felt really comfortable and ready (took the co-driver school with Mark Williams, sat in someone elses car at another event for reccee), and it all went to heck pretty fast.

But I wouldn't listen to this Alan Ockwell guy, I don't think he knows much about co-driving ;D

Title: Re: Service crew question?
Post by Donnie on 07/20/10 at 17:51:28

AlanO wrote on 07/20/10 at 17:13:09:

Tracy is in complete agreement with your priorities Alan, these two things i here over and over again, we've agreed to keep our dialogue down to a minimum while in the car, i may only use one word "Affirmative". If in the event that RSO does not hold the Performance Rally Co- Driving school in October before Pines,she'll be looking you up, i'll warn you now.....You may not be her hero, i hold that designation :) But she does very much admire your skill...

Title: Re: Service crew question?
Post by rosswood on 07/20/10 at 20:32:50

Definite plans for an RSO Co-driving school before Pines.

Title: Re: Service crew question?
Post by solitude99 on 07/20/10 at 23:22:40

Alan you missed number 3... Have Fun...

I would be in for the Co Drivers school..

Derek.