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Message started by 2000 Impreza on 07/21/10 at 14:54:42

Title: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by 2000 Impreza on 07/21/10 at 14:54:42

Its been a pretty slow day at my work today so I have just been cruising around on the internet looking at cars. Now its probably a ways off down the road but someday I would like to build and eventually race a stage rally car. I know allot of people recommend buying a build car or having a shop prep the car. However I really enjoy working on cars and would love to do as much of the work myself as possible. So this has got me wondering what the best option for building an awd rally car is? I presume production class is the cheapest route? Trying to figure out what the best performance/reliable/cost to run etc. I know 2 wheel is a cheaper route to go but I love awd to much and since I am still in the dreaming phase just wondering what other people think.
Audi A4 1.8t
subaru 2.5rs
Subaru wrx..
...?

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by RyanHuber on 07/21/10 at 15:08:30

An RS for sure, but I'd run in open just for the flexibility. Figure on spending at least $10k for a build, and that's doing 90% of the work yourself, and cheaping out and doing things like tremclad interior paint. Having just spent 2 years building my car, I'm an advocate for buying a prepared car, unless you're a masochist like me...

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by RyanHuber on 07/21/10 at 15:12:20

Oh, and just to clarify, that's 10k not including the original cost of the car, or suspension.

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by 2000 Impreza on 07/21/10 at 15:17:58

I am a big big Subaru fan so thats the way I think I would be leaning anyways. Do you think the 2.5L will keep up ok in open?

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by 2000 Impreza on 07/21/10 at 15:25:36

or did you swap an sti motor?

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by RyanHuber on 07/21/10 at 15:29:08

Honestly, no. But it depends what you're looking for. If you're in rally to have fun, what does it matter what class you're in? If the $10 plaque to hang on your wall is the goal, then no, you don't want to run open with an RS. You need at least a WRX if not an STi to run with those boys, and be competitive. Or rather, you need the drivetrain. The nice thing with Subarus, you can run as an RS for a couple years, swap in a STi drivetrain later and move up. They're basically Lego. I just advocate running open for simplicity for parts, etc. Want to run aftermarket parts that are often cheaper and better than factory? You technically can't in production, though you'd likely never get protested because of it.

Another example, a 2 door impreza would be hell in production, because you can't replace the rear quarter windows with lexan, which means you have to either take seats out or crawl through the trunk to get to your rear strut tops. Open, lexan and dzus fasteners is easy. Stuff like that.

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by 2000 Impreza on 07/21/10 at 15:45:32

Actually that is a really good point on running the rs motor for a couple years. I never really thought about the option of upgrading later. I like to think I would be winning races right out of the gate but I would be happy to just finish some races and have some fun

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by corywannamaker on 07/21/10 at 15:57:02

Basically that is my plan. I am ( hopefully soon) starting my build on my 09 impreza 2.5i I have been running the rallyx for 2 years now but have SO much to learn about stage rally. I feel very comfortable running PGT in the 09 for a few years to learn how to drive on the stage roads, work things out with a co-driver, service crew etc.etc.etc. and as said before Subaru's are like lego. When you are ready, swap it and go faster. It is always surprising how fast you can be with 170hp. I really don't feel like you need 300+hp to go fast. Nothing wrong with dreaming, I have been dreaming about building a stage car for 10 years now and I am finally getting to the point where I can. Just one more thing. I think that doing as much work yourself is a great idea ( what I am doing) so that as things break and bend etc You know what it is and how to fix it. If you pay someone to do the whole thing you may not know how it all goes together and how to fix it. If you buy a built car you have no idea what has been done right or wrong or how it goes together.

Cory

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by 2000 Impreza on 07/21/10 at 16:11:14

"I think that doing as much work yourself is a great idea ( what I am doing) so that as things break and bend etc You know what it is and how to fix it. If you pay someone to do the whole thing you may not know how it all goes together and how to fix it. If you buy a built car you have no idea what has been done right or wrong or how it goes together."

My thoughts exactly. I feel like I know a fair bit about car but I have allot to learn still and building a car from the ground up seems like a good way to figure allot of that stuff out. The only thing that really has me worried is building a cage. I am an ok welder at best, but I do have a few friends who are pretty proficient.

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by corywannamaker on 07/21/10 at 16:21:27

As far the cage is goes, i am going to pay someone to do that. For a few reasons. It is much easier to get it log booked when done by a someone that does alot of them. The cage will ( among others) be the thing that can and will save my life when I roll or meet a big oak tree at speed.

My plan.
get someone to install the cage
Get good suspension
Buy good seats, harnesses, helmet, and HANS
do everything else myself.

Some things are better done by the people that know what they are doing and have it all work out. Alot of engineering goes into a cage seat mounts etc. so in that case I will trust others

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by 2000 Impreza on 07/21/10 at 16:30:07

That probably is the best route I suppose. I would really love to build my own cage but don't know if it really makes sense to try. Its something I would really like to have confidence in.
For safety equipment I will definitely go with good equipment not something I feel anyone should skimp out on.

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by cstorry on 07/22/10 at 10:45:54

One of my concerns about building my own car is shell re-inforcement.

As a novice builder and with little access to people who have built my particular car into a gravel rally car then where to reinforce the shell so it doesn't break on the first jump I take is an issue for me ?

I presume that even for a Subaru that seam welding isn't enough to have the car last more than a season or two as you learn.

For the Subaru I presume you could also get lots of advice from folks that have gone before.

Chuck

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by corywannamaker on 07/22/10 at 11:10:07

I am assuming that you would reinforce the cars in a similar way. If you talk to any of the shops that build rally cars I am sure that you can get answers how to do it or who else to talk to. The one thing that is great about rally is everyone ( in my experience) is willing to help new people get into the sport.

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by dtompsett on 07/22/10 at 12:38:27

As far as reinforcing weak points in a car; while it's handy to build a Subaru since everyone has done it (lots of experience), there are plenty of other cars out there to glean information from. Strengthening a car isn't that difficult; just a matter of figuring out where the forces are concentrating, what is weak, and how to distribute loads over a greater area.

The real trick is figuring out how to do it without building a tank.

Some major factors to consider when building a car is what you plan to do with it, how competitive you want to be, and just how much you want to spend? I always figured I'd build a Audi rally car... but when you look at expenses, it becomes unrealistic...
-custom suspension (nobody else at an event will have anything remotely similar that you can beg/borrow/steal if yours breaks)
-outdated technology (torsen diffs sucks... and locking diffs are nice if you want to swap in older transmissions that have them)
-little aftermarket support (able to call up a few suppliers and have a full set of spares, performance parts, fancy diff controllers, etc etc)

Not saying we should all drive Subaru's... but it's all about how competetive you want to be, and how much money you want to spend.

And a properly built car will last many seasons. Look at some of the cars competing today that have passed through many hands. Heck, Randy Zimmer in the US running a Subaru is a great example of what you can to do a car and how you can keep it going year after year. I'm pretty sure his rally car has outlasted 2 tow vehicles!

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by 2000 Impreza on 07/24/10 at 12:24:20

Anyone have any ruff numbers on what it would cost me to have a cage installed? I would do as much prep myself as I could, bring it to the shop all stripped and what not. I suppose I could make some phone calls and actually get some quotes but figure someone here might have an idea.

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by RyanHuber on 07/24/10 at 12:47:34

For a full FIA (current) spec cage, with a few extras (sill bars, tie in to the front strut towers, etc) you're likely looking at around $5000, give or take depending on where you go.

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by RyanHuber on 07/24/10 at 12:53:06

I actually built my cage myself, and then paid to get it welded, but I had access to a good bender and notcher and welder at the shop where my car lives. Just to give you some ideas, here's what a current FIA spec cage looks like (my cage)

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by 2000 Impreza on 07/24/10 at 13:51:15

Thanks for the quick reply Ryan. I suppose that's not to bad I was hoping for 3-4 but I suppose when its one of those your life may depends on it sorta things $5ish is not to bad.

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by nhibbert on 07/25/10 at 13:34:42

2000 Impreza wrote on 07/21/10 at 15:45:32:

On this point, what I would do is plan on just finishing every rally the first year. Don't even worry about times. Getting to know how the car works, how the team works, what the stages look like, how to deal with mechanical issues, how the rules work etc. all take a lot of time to figure out. By simply planning on finishing every rally you'll get a lot of seat time and you'll become familiar with all the stages. Not that every rally uses the exact same stages every year but knowing where the 'gotchya's' are can save you skin if you're ever running that stage full out again in the future.

In your second year of competing you can start thinking about where you want to place in the finish order and figure out what you need to do car-wise and skill-wise to get yourself into that position.

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by corywannamaker on 08/03/10 at 18:32:10

Thought that I would share this. Although I do not like Jay Leno he did raise a good point in this case.

(Jay) You had someone build this car
(Eric) Only this time, the last 3 times me and my buddy's did it.
(Jay) Yeah but the last 3 times you didn't crack it up
(Eric) Yeah
(Jay) So you were afraid to tell the guy who build it what happened correct?
(Eric) yeah I was
(Jay) because...... it's his car, If you had put all the blood sweat and tears into this build you would not have hit the tree.
(Eric) you think so
(Jay) It's like a rent a car you take it out and beat the hell out of it.

From Love The Beast ( great movie for cars guys by the way, Get your wife or girlfriend to watch it if she does not understand why you love your car)

Now before everyone jumps on me I know that there are some stuff or some people that rather get their car built by someone. This just hit home for me as I want to build my own and I thought that I would share.

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by Donnie on 08/03/10 at 21:29:12

I got your back Cory :)

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by mattman_4444 on 08/24/10 at 12:35:20

2000 Impreza wrote on 07/24/10 at 12:24:20:

Budget at least $3000 (most likely more) for a cage

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by dan sprongl on 08/24/10 at 13:09:54

Hi

Don't take this wrong way, you may be in love with Subaru, Mitsubishi, Audi etc.

But if you are novice, start with a 2wd car, rear or front drive.
Rear drive is a little scarce, you may may need to stick to front wheel drive.

Make it reliable, get seat time, learn to drive the wheels off of it.

2wd is less expensive to run than an AWD car in the same class, production or open/g2/g5

Pick a car that you can source parts for readily.
Good parts, not things that will let you down.

Rare cars are cool, head turners etc, but having to wait for a custom part while the summer passes and so do rallies, really sucks.

First thing is safety,and reliability, with suspesnion, gearing and brakes. The last thing you work on is power increase, that comes with time.

Dan Sprongl
Four Star Motorsports inc

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by Dave Cotie on 08/24/10 at 13:37:16

Some good advice right there ^^^^^.

Another point that Dan did not mention is that "unique" cars can be tougher to sell if you make the decision later to move to AWD.

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by 2000 Impreza on 08/24/10 at 13:41:25

"2wd is less expensive to run than an AWD car in the same class, production or open/g2/g5"
I always hear that awd will be a lot more expensive. Having never raced either I am not sure why that is? Will there be that much more breaking on the cars? Are the parts just that much more expensive? I suppose if I was driving a fwd civic or something along those lines the parts would be dirt cheep.

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by Dave Cotie on 08/24/10 at 14:03:42

Twice as many tires to replace. Twice as may halfshafts. More complicated drivetrain, etc. Heavier, therefore bigger more expensive tires.

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by Juggernaut Motorsports on 08/24/10 at 19:18:37

Not to mention the cost of racegas (110 oct.) which is currently ~$3.62/L and you'll need a ton of it.

You'll go through brakes faster as well due to the heavier car at higher speeds. Running 2wd saves bringing as many extra tires to events, and they also last longer since you probably won't have the power to churn them like you would in Open.

This is all assuming you don't crash in the process of racing. I don't know about you, but I know I can source Ford parts for the Focus a LOT cheaper than Subaru parts.

Even if you don't crash, though I can't confirm this from experience, I can only assume that the bigger, heavier car breaks a lot more of itself when it lands at much higher speeds if you don't land somewhat properly. Of course the argument could be made that the parts are beefier so they can withstand the pounding.

Also if it's your cup of tea (if it isn't already it eventually will be), the go-fast bits for 2wd cars tend to be cheaper (again comparing Subaru with Ford) and fewer of them needed (no crazy turbo).

Just thought I'd throw in what little experience I have so far!

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by Do_It_Sidewayz on 08/25/10 at 09:42:03

I dunno... I think that Rallying a BONE STOCK 1999-2000 Impreza 2.5RS would be pretty cheap.

I ran a year of rallying with a 01 RS motor (yes it had some cams), and certainly didn't cost very much.

I ran the following:
- "street performance" brake pads, the one set last one season, and still had LOTS of meat left over
- Pump Gas (91 because i felt bad putting 87 in a race car)
- Rotella T oil ($20 oil change before every event)
- The entire season on 6 tires. (not including snows etc for pines)

I broke one driveshaft...but it was a 200,000+ Km unit.

Talk to Randy Zimmer....he runs his car for next to nothing.

Once you get into modifying it...then yes some things get more expensive. Things like Diffs (because there are 3 of them).... but most of the other stuff is about the same....Brakes, Power, etc.

Having said that. I think a Focus, or a Honda Civic would be really cheap to run, and fun.

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by Dave Cotie on 08/25/10 at 09:56:35

I agree with you Chris, however watching from the sidelines ....

Very few people have the self control that Randy does. It seems ineveitable that the RS's end up with STi motors, big turbos, race gas, etc.

Randy keeps his N/A 2.5 and drives the hell out of it. 8-)

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by corywannamaker on 08/25/10 at 10:24:11

I agree with what most people say. I am building my impreza and going to run it STOCK. for as long as I can ( well that the plan) but I agree that most people want more power as they get more comfortable. I think that the reason most of the subies get sti swaps is because they are fairly straight forward to do. Not like turning a fwd or rwd into awd etc. They are LEGO. for the most part. There is something to say about running fwd or rwd but I don't know if the cost is that much less. I don't know and I am sure that I will find out once I get mine built and start to race.

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by Juggernaut Motorsports on 08/26/10 at 15:21:45

Do_It_Sidewayz wrote on 08/25/10 at 09:42:03:

Good points Chris. I have some beer with your name on it. Of the important things we forgot to bring to GCFR, beer was definitely one of them!

Title: Re: Day Dreaming about a rally car.
Post by jgardhouse on 08/26/10 at 19:30:47

My 17 cents:

2WD [Production] is the cheapest to be in a 'competitive' car - provided its the right car (I would not want to run a production mexico made Turbo VW, for example)

I've gone through (worn out, we won't count flats) 3 gravel tires in 3 test days, 3 rallycrosses and 5 regionals. Cheap!
I think the rear hotbits have been rebuilt once in 6 years, rear brake pads once in 4 years, front pads were at least 3 years... Wear item/wear costs are Very cheap! and there is much less to wear (only two drive shafts, 1 diff etc)
Fuel - pump gas. I did Galway (The rally and the drive there and back from TO on less then a tank). Very very cheap!

Consider what Peter/Jimmy and Frank/Dan have done in sub 100 HP swifts - Its all driver in 2WD (And I'm a crap driver :P)

I my world, rally is about having fun - even when the car is inverted!