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MLRC Forum
https://www.mlrc.ca/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl General >> Rally >> Rallycross https://www.mlrc.ca/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1297730333 Message started by Donnie on 02/14/11 at 19:38:53 |
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Title: Rallycross Post by Donnie on 02/14/11 at 19:38:53 Why is it that i get the impression that no one is interested in formulating any sort of Regional Rallycross Championship based on a fully prepped Performance Rally car platform? I really don't understand this considering that this would be advantageous for Drivers/ Co-drivers (possibly sharing cars), 2-wheel drive cars would get more exposure, we may see more involvement of sponsors,the overall cost of these events would be considerably less, And above all Spectators would have much more opportunity to see a lot more action. |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by rosswood on 02/15/11 at 11:21:29 RallySport Ontario did organize a Regional RallyCross Series for two years (2007 and 2008 I believe), but it died when only one club was willing to continue organizing (MLRC), so it has become a highly successful club series. To offer an RX series for performance cars only would almost certainly not be financially viable for the organizing club. In effect a non-competitive alternative is being offered by MLRC through its Test Days. |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by gully on 02/15/11 at 16:02:40 Donnie what I think you would be more interested in is a Rally Sprint series The biggest problems, like all Rallies, RX , Suitable Venue Organizers ARMS Rally have not really had a rally program for many years however they started a RallySprint series a couple of years ago as a way to get people to build cars. One of these cars took novice at RPN and there is discussion down the road for a Perf rally in NS Pete g |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Donnie on 02/15/11 at 17:33:55 The whole problem stems from relying on Organizing Clubs then..., be it financial or organizational ??? |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Dave Cotie on 02/15/11 at 19:51:51 No I think the whole problem stems from a very simple set of problems. 1. People that own land want insurance to allow these events (if they will even allow them in the first place). 2. Insurance costs money. 3. That money come from competitors. They pay entry fees. 4. The entry fees for these types of events start to get close to the costs of a full-blown rally. 5. Competitors say "Then I might as well enter a Rally, if I am going to pay that." 6. Wash, rinse and repeat. :o |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Donnie on 02/15/11 at 22:42:45 Actually the insurance through ASN/FIA seems pretty reasonable, if you ran the event for prepped Rally Cars on the Golton Super Special Stage in the same fashion and magnitude as it was for Tall Pines, except use the long track. |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Dean Campbell on 02/15/11 at 23:14:39 I've said this before to anyone who will listen... RX should be the entry level to the sport. Promoting it as a venue for fully prepped cars or trailer queens reduces the perception that RX is accessible in a daily driver. It's a big reason I continue to compete in my daily driver. I joked a few years ago that I wanted to get turbo "kill" stickers made to stick on my car for every turbo car I beat.. I'm starting to think I should get trailer stickers. In fact, I am not entirely opposed to trailered cars. I think having logbooked cars is pretty cool for anyone who hasn't had the chance to see one up close. My biggest beef is having cars that show up totally stripped out, looking like a giant pile of crap. It looks terrible, and the pace drivers push these cars, while impressive, verges on unsafe... I could point to one event where the same car rolled twice, with no roll-over protection. At least if a rallycar rolls, it has a cage and proper seats and harnesses. At the minimum, cars should be licensed for the road, to help control the number of total shitboxes that show up. Anyhow, I'll end my rant and respond more directly Donnie. What you are looking for (and what I'm looking for) is the return of rallysprint. My understanding of the matter is that rallysprint used to be the stepping stone between RX and stage rally. The rules used to reflect that, allowing regular road going cars, provided after two events some form of roll protection (including bolt in options) be installed in the car. Rallysprints were to be run on roads that kept the average speed below that of stage rallies, and included a need for a navigator. Then, in one Canadian region, things got out of hand, and instead of enforcing the rules, the powers that be decided to change to a requirement for a fully logbooked rally car. Anyone in my position, with a daily driver, and a desire for more seat time, but no cash for a fully prepped car, got left out in the cold. The closest we have to rallysprints now are test days, which go unscored and do not actually require a navigator. Since you still have to use a fully logbooked car, it still prevents folks like me from growing within the sport. I'd really like to see the rules changed back, and enforced, to provide a much needed stepping stone between RX and stage rally. I think given the number of people who would benefit is quite large. Off the top I can count at least five drivers who I've seen come and go through rallycross, who aren't doing much of anything right now, but would probably be all over rallysprint. I'm sure there are way more. I know suitable roads exist, and I know of one person that has volunteered to organize a rallysprint, but without a rule change, what's the point? |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Donnie on 02/15/11 at 23:36:59 Dean Campbell wrote on 02/15/11 at 23:14:39:
I'm talking about an event separate and apart from the Four Star Motorsport Rallycross Championship, believe me, "WE" love this series and we run two cars in it. We are not trying to push anyone out in cold.... We are interested in is a series similar to what is going on in the States, but without the whole six cars on the track thing. Basically a prepped rally car specific event, that focuses on driver skill rather than absolute speed. |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Donnie on 02/16/11 at 00:26:35 (At the minimum, cars should be licensed for the road, to help control the number of total shitboxes that show up.) This statement somewhat concerns me.I cannot count the number of times i have saw cars leave Rallycross that were plated for the road, that were by no means fit for the road after an event.I've had a guy ask me for brake fluid during the day,blow by me a 120k on the way home. Considering the beating that most steering/suspension parts take during an event, I personally would never consider driving a car back to the city after an event. |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Dave Cotie on 02/16/11 at 01:00:54 Donnie wrote on 02/16/11 at 00:26:35:
My $500 Subaru has been: - driven to two rally-X and run in both of them. - I used it for the TP work day. - I am currently using it because the rear hard line in my Explorer rusted out after 13 years. - I plan to use it for Nav rallies. - I use it for the occasional hoonage after fresh snow falls! - I even drive my kids around in it. - I drove it to Peterborough and got company mileage that was equivalent to 1/2 the purchase price! ;D Maybe that is why I am slow at the rally-X's but I am learning, but it is fully licensed and insured. Edit: That just happens to be the way I am set-up. I thought about this after I posted and not eveyone may be set-up to register and license their car. So to each his own. As Dean said this is an entry level activity and everyone should be allowed to enter how they choose (as long as they meet the rules). |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by kelly_s on 02/16/11 at 07:51:36 Donnie wrote on 02/16/11 at 00:26:35:
If this comes about, I'll be out of the rallycross game and I would rather stay around for a while. I have a truck and a trailer so there is no need to get my VW licensed for the road. I got into rallycross because it was cheap, simple, and safe. Even with the few roll overs that have occured, have there been any injuries? Dean, I think for the speeds that are reached during a rallycross, a car without any roll over protection is more than safe enough. Now if the car has a lot of structure rotted away or something that is obviously wrong then sure, i would not want them running. I just feel that rallycross seems to be working fine. Now having a rallysprint on a road like Galway with road legal cars, that would be a blast but highly unlikely. |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by rosswood on 02/16/11 at 08:57:52 Dean had it exactly right when he outlined the change in the CARS RallySprint rules a few years ago. It used to be the stepping stone between RallyCross and Performance events, requring a roll bar, not a cage and with speed/course requirements in between the other two. When the rule change came about (for exactly the reason Dean indicated), Ray Felice, the RSO President, fought the change but lost. We were just about to run a three event RallySprint series when that change was approved, effectively killing the initiative. I suggest that if you would like to see it changed back, make that known officially to the RSO Board. Discussions on forums like this are great, but are not taken as official delegations to the RSO Board. There are several ways to do that. One really good way would be to attend the RSO AGM on March 19th in Peterborough and make your wishes known in the discussion period. If the rules change back, I will personally offer to organize RS events immediately on behalf of MLRC. In my previous post I mentioned that financial viability is an issue for clubs putting on events for a limited group i.e. performance cars only. The entry fee would have to be much higher than at the current RallyCrosses. I'm not sure what Donnie is looking for in requesting events for performance cars only. More seat time? Not having to share with the non-performance cars? |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Donnie on 02/16/11 at 10:03:23 Its doesn't surprise me much that certain "parties" would hijack a thread and miss the point altogether. Lets face it MLRC is not big on change, being a member i see that, and rightly so.....i guess. I'm left with the the impression that "if they (MLRC) hasn't done it it ain't worth doing". What this thread is about is an "Event" a single "Event" just to test it's viability economically and to see just what kind of interest it arouses. This event would be a closed event based on two classes, 2wd & AWD prepped Performance Rally Cars, there would be no Championship points awarded. This would be an opportunity to give 2wd class the exposure they wish to have on this side of the "boarder". Two class Awards 2wd & AWD and a AWD/2wd "showdown" between the two award winners just to settle things once and for all !!!! Golton Stage is the BEST venue for this, as this course focuses on driver skill more than absolute speed. The Golton's would be more than happy to supply food/ camping at a reasonable cost which ='s ECONOMIC IMPACT which is a good thing :) Lets make it a weekend thing, hang out, have fun, and support a sport we truly enjoy !!! |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Donnie on 02/16/11 at 10:10:45 Dean can be in charge of stickers :) |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Juggernaut Motorsports on 02/16/11 at 13:08:36 My .02 As a fellow competitor in both regards, I would like to say that the rallysprint is something that interests me as it would provide more seat time for the mid ranged speed stuff at a proposed more reasonable cost than a testing day. Could use something like half of a Lanark (vs. Galway which is rough on tires) type road with LOTS of hay bales for chicanes to slow the average speed to well below stage rally levels. As explained below, it would really bridge the gap as Dean has mentioned, between rallyx and stage rally and allow competitors to develop as drivers. It would allow competitors to see how quickly their goals can be attained in a performance setting and when they can begin the onslaught, if ever. I know that was not the intended purpose of the thread so, The Golton stage is fun but I don't often get to use the specific technical skills I learn there on the stages as often as I would like. Or maybe it's just not as often as I think :-?. The surface plays a large part in this later in the day. Does it contribute to increased confidence in R&L 1, 2, 3's? Yes it does. Is it cheap seat time? Absolutely! The principles are the same but when our car can only get to third gear once ( with a rather short 4.75 FDR) and for a VERY short period of time on the straight in the back through the two trees before the last few corners, there simply is no substitute for stage rally. However that's not the point of rallyx. It's meant to be cheap, accessible, relaxed and fun. If you were to set up a prepped performance rally day only, we would consider coming as it's basically just another rally cross (leaning more towards a testing day really) but more than likely a social day with many of the seed 5/6 competitors. Don't get me wrong when I say that the wait times when there are a large number of competitors can be laborious, as I do like the event as a whole. With the smaller number of teams that would show by my best guess, we would get more runs in. AK |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Alexei S on 02/16/11 at 13:33:19 My $0.02, IMO, I personally would not be interested in running Golton as a performance rally-x car series because the track is too tight and the seat time is too low for me to justify getting a log booked car on a trailer and out there. A low entry fee would be appealing, but the track just doesn't let a car stretch its legs. If there was another venue that was more open, it may be worth it but I don't know of any other one. |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Donnie on 02/16/11 at 13:55:36 Alexei S wrote on 02/16/11 at 13:33:19:
Believe me, properly prepared cars, experienced drivers and some track modifications would = less extractions which would equal more seat time.With regard to track modifications,i spoke to Ross at the last MLRC meeting, and there was mention of a second track, this could be integrated to the existing track, that is unless Ross's real intention was to split the existing track into two tracks, which IMO would not be in the best interest of MLRC and it's Rallycross events. |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Dave Cotie on 02/16/11 at 15:08:23 Donnie wrote on 02/16/11 at 10:03:23:
Donnie, maybe I am being obtuse, but I don't understand from your original post why it needs to be a seperate event? I guess because you are looking for more runs per car or something? If that is the case then why don't you organize something for a Saturday before a regular rally-X? If not why not let the prepped cars run as a seperate class (like the drivers chose to do at the Oct. Rally-X)? I also don't understand why this would get anyone more "exposure"? Rally-X isn't exactly going to get front page of the Toronto Star Sports section. The Rally Car series in the U.S gets coverage because it is wheel-to-wheel, but that is not what you are proposing. |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Donnie on 02/16/11 at 17:16:00 Dave Cotie wrote on 02/16/11 at 15:08:23:
(If that is the case then why don't you organize something for a Saturday before a regular rally-X?) This wouldn't constitute a formal invite on behalf of the MLRC would it ?? |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Dweeb on 02/16/11 at 18:10:01 Golton stage is good for the first 2 runs, after that it becomes very rough. So as a Rally-x it kind of does its job, at least in the beginning of the day. The speed is not there to compare it to an actual stage, after all it is a Super Special Stage designed for spectators. But it can be used for “full prep” rally cars, and them having their own class. It was done at the fall rally-x. Only thing I wish the road was longer, and not a 1:40min sprint. It would be nice if we could find a course for rally-x that was 4-5 min long. As for Rally-sprint, I do not think Golton would be good. It is too short and too slow. As mentioned, Gallway or similar road would be much better. However the speed would be higher. This could be avoided by having chicanes on the straights. I don’t know all the rules and regulations regarding rally-x and rally-sprint, but it would be nice if something like a combination of rally-sprint and rally-x course was possible, where the length of the road (an actual road not a field) would be 4-5km long, and yet you did not require a cage. Using a good setup of the road (chicanes), the speeds could be kept somewhat low also. Obviously you would need the normal safety stuff, helmet, seatbelts, and a safe and PROPER car. (it should not matter if it is plated or not, but it should pass a proper safety inspection !! ) |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Dave Cotie on 02/16/11 at 18:41:01 Donnie wrote on 02/16/11 at 17:16:00:
Seeing that I am just a volunteer and in fact, I haven't even signed up for membership yet for 2011, I would say that I am in no position to "approve" anything on behalf of MLRC. However I am sure that if you proposed something and had a solid plan, they would listen. They are always looking for more people to help out on the organizing side. You seem to have a vision and passion for this type of event. Put together something and propose it. |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Donnie on 02/16/11 at 18:55:38 Thanks Dave, My statement was a attempt to put some humor to this thread. Your compliment promotes confidence in that we can put something together at a reasonable cost that is a hell of a lot of fun with some "showdown" style competition, to give guys like Leo a venue to "Pull out all the stops" :) |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Dean Campbell on 02/16/11 at 20:59:08 As one of your "Parties" Donnie, sorry to hijack. Given you initially posted about a championship, I thought you were talking about a multi event series. Absolutely, it would be interesting to see your vision brought to bear. I understand how you feel about seeing progress and change, and am presently working to develop some change in other respects! |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Donnie on 02/16/11 at 21:27:01 A Championship would be a result to a lot of hard work. But this needs a starting point to test its viability and potential. An "Event" would be a good opportunity to shake the preverbal tree and see what falls out. |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Daniel Buehler on 02/16/11 at 22:29:49 Dean Campbell wrote on 02/15/11 at 23:14:39:
It wasn't me! ;D |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Dweeb on 02/16/11 at 22:41:43 Dean, he didn't roll 2 different times, once he put it on the side only ;D the second time he did a McRae and continued. Kind of cool actually, he didn’t freak out, nor did he panic. But i do understand you point on the safety issue, as some cars that come to the rally-x are, well, not road worthy to put it mildly. I remember cars dropping their gas tank on a run. Plus we had roll overs in the pit in the early 2000’s, but never any injury. There should be some kind of rule on the worthiness of a car doing a rally-x. But “plated or not” should not make a difference. |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Dean Campbell on 02/16/11 at 23:07:07 Dweeb, I agree, it's more about worthiness. Thing is we'd need someone who would volunteer to do said inspections on a regular basis, which sounds like it could be hard to get to happen. By requiring cars be plated and licensed, you require that at some point, the car was safetied. I know that doesn't mean it's a recent safety, nor that a car that passes a safety is proof of worth for a rallycross... |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Dweeb on 02/16/11 at 23:41:01 Having someone do the “safety” would be a good. But it will also create many huge arguments, unless there is a very, very specific guideline to follow. Without a guideline/rule, I can already see the arguments. “well, I think this is totally fine, or, I ran like this somewhere else no problem, or I think it’s safe, or I have valid plates and insurance crap so it must be safe….etc., etc., etc. That is why I said “plated or non-plated” makes no difference, but it must abide by these safety rules no matter what. I would gladly do the safety, but I am hated already enough, so I pity the poor soul who would volunteer for this job, as i can forsee the issues and arguments he will have. For rally-x, I think the rules should be very simple and easy to allow / disqualify the entry. Something to the aspect of: All wheel studs/lug-nuts must be on and secured. All brakes must be functioning No leaking fluid of any kind No broken windshield (minor chips are ok, but no fractures) Battery must be securely fastened to frame/subframe with proper tie-downs (not a strap or a rubber band) No lose items in the car Proper safety restrains (either OEM or a 5/6 point seatbelts) Legal helmets No rust holes or damage to A, B,C pillars on car or car roof, unless full certified cage in car (for roll over security) There are few others, but I hope you get my point…. Yet I have seen entries that were “rally-prepped” cars by “shops” at the rally-x's over the last 2 years that I would NOT allow to run just based on the above. . |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Anthony_T on 02/16/11 at 23:44:02 I do remember that at one point there was a tech inspection that took place prior to the beginning of a rallyx event - I think back when they were taking place in the pit. It was a basic check - battery bolted down, seats secure, that kind of thing... It's not much - but it kept people accountable to at least some kind of standard. If inspections were to be brought back you would have to have clearly stated/specific expectations at to what is and isn't acceptable in terms of car condition posted prior to the event. I think having a basic tech prior to the event is a responsible thing for the club to do. I might even be willing... |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Dweeb on 02/16/11 at 23:46:06 ^^ correct, we used to have tech inspection when we ran the pit..... ahhhh , good old pit!! |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Dave Cotie on 02/17/11 at 10:57:47 I think part of the issue here is that with the turn-out last year (42? in Oct.) it would be hard to tech every event. Do what the ice racers do tech once a year and require people to show up early if they need tech. I would volunteer to tech vehicles. I would just have to leave North Bay at 4 am instead of 6 am! ;D |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Yopofun on 02/17/11 at 14:11:59 I've been following this discussion for the past couple days and would like to say I really like the direction and ideas that are coming from it, ie a Saturday event/Rally Sprint on the back roads and the addition of car inspections. For the rally sprint, it would be nice to see the event held on a different track/course as mentioned earlier. I know it was mentioned as a one time event, but a separate series for it would be nice. So then you could have MLRC RallyCross, MLRC RallySprint and MLRC TallPines. For the RallySprint, I'd fully agree on enhanced security measures, but as it would be a stepping stone to stage events, but I would not like to see the requirement of a full roll cage, just to keep it more open to drivers. If you make the requirements to strict, you won't get the required amount of cars, which cut the income from the event, causing it to cost more to the racers. For the vehicle inspection at the rallycross, maybe a mandatory inspection for the first event you participate in each year? That would probably be the January event, for most members, which may annoy the inspection techs, as they'd be stuck out in the cold :P Anyway, that's just my input. You may carry on now. Tim |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by gully on 02/18/11 at 19:17:10 I have been following this discussion and one thing that appears to me is that very few have read the CARS regulations concerning RallyCross and RallySprint. These regs can be found on CARS web site while 2011 rules are not posted as yet the 2010 version cover Cross and Sprint. You will see these are distinctly different style of events That there is a very defined ruleset that organizers are required to follow. While I would like to see rules on RallySprint revert to the rules of several years ago. However nothing is going to happen unless YOU Apply to your Region RSO President and ask that he request CARS to change the rules. You need to state what changes you would like to see etc. Posting in any Forum is not a request thats just a discussion location You could also attend the RSO AGM March 19th and raise your request at that time. Again you must know exactly what you are asking for, so read the rules first Pete g |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by nhibbert on 02/19/11 at 10:38:11 Yopofun wrote on 02/17/11 at 14:11:59:
The rules for rallyX were very carefully thought out to allow for the maximum amount of enjoyment (e.g. speed) while still remaining relatively safe for regular street cars. Any change in format that increased the speeds will require an increase in safety equipment (i.e. roll cage). Personally I'd like to see something like a hillclimb in Ontario, although finding a suitable location might be hard. Forks-of-the-Credit might be a good road, but I imagine getting permission to use it would be next to impossible. Also; you forgot MLRC BlackBear. |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by corywannamaker on 02/19/11 at 15:05:38 I also have been watching this thread from the outside. I only hope that all of the people that would like to see another event or events show their support when something gets put together. It is a big challenge to organize something from the ground up. Their are people out there right now in the process of trying to get things off the ground to get more racing in any form. Just please remember this and support those people when it is ready to go. Cory |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Donnie on 02/19/11 at 20:51:53 corywannamaker wrote on 02/19/11 at 15:05:38:
In for penny in for a pound Cory !!! Follow our progress with a new Rallycross venue on Facebook @ LiveFlatOut. Once we get some ground thaw all hell's gonna break loose. |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by nhibbert on 02/25/11 at 07:49:55 Donnie I new rallyX venue would be fantastic. There have been a few attempts to get other facilities going over the past few years, but they've all run into legal (municipal zoning) issues or they've been too unsafe. There was one course set up a few years ago north of Barrie that was great except it was very hilly, which meant cars could roll very easily. It would have been fine for Rallysprint rules (i.e. caged cars), but not for rallyX (i.e. street cars). I'm looking forward to see what you guys come up with. |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by rosswood on 02/25/11 at 08:31:47 Indeed it would be great to find another good site, especially one closer to Toronto. We have been trying for many years with no luck. They are either unsuitable for a course and will not comply with CARS RX Regulations i.e. too hilly, obstacles such as trees too close etc or the surface was not suitable - too sandy, clay base (too slippery when wet) etc. We tried with several existing motorsport facilities, but they wanted too much money for us to run a grassroots type program. Several gave permission but municipal zoning and/or complaints from neighbours shut them down. Hope you come up with something, guys. |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by Andrew Massey on 02/25/11 at 10:51:43 Has anyone ever approached Mosport for this kind of thing? I know there is a TON of space in the infield of the big track to make a half-decent special stage. It is sandy.... but I'm sure the minds here could think of something. |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by corywannamaker on 02/25/11 at 10:55:20 yeah I have a couple of differnet places in mind for a rallyx and for a rally sprint. It is a big under taking as most of you already know but I think that it will be worth it in the end. Just trying to get more people and more exposure for the sport and motorspors in general through the website and through more events of all kinds. I will keep working on ideas and with the help of Don and others we will get somthing going I am sure of it. We have to start somewhere and work our way to bigger and better events. LFO is always open to new ideas and advice so please don't hesitate to contact me and let me know what you want or what you are looking for. Thanks Cory Wannamaker |
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Title: Re: Rallycross Post by corywannamaker on 02/25/11 at 10:56:21 Andrew Massey wrote on 02/25/11 at 10:51:43:
Have contacted and talked to. Thanks |
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