|
MLRC Forum
https://www.mlrc.ca/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl General >> Rally >> How does insurance work... does it? https://www.mlrc.ca/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1312823310 Message started by Doom on 08/08/11 at 12:08:30 |
|
Title: How does insurance work... does it? Post by Doom on 08/08/11 at 12:08:30 Hi, I'm very very very new to the rally world and am just putting together my plan for getting a car, training etc. What I can't figure out is how insurance works... or doesn't. Firstly, if I turbo charge a car, most insurance will cancel me for adding a speed/performance enhancing mod. Second, as soon as I race my insurance is invalid as is the rules in Ontario. So how does it work? Do you just sign away your rights when you enter a race? Or do you not insure your race car? Any info would be greatly appreciated, or if there's an insurance carrier who specializes in this kind of thing I'd love to know their name. Thank you very very much! |
|
Title: Re: How does insurance work... does it? Post by Anthony_T on 08/08/11 at 22:25:20 This is a complicated question - some people may hesitate chiming in. I am not sure there is a consensus as to what is the 'proper' or 'legal' way to insure a rally car (though this may have changed in the past couple years). I would approach a professional rally prep shop to see what they are currently doing for insurance. |
|
Title: Re: How does insurance work... does it? Post by DaveM on 08/09/11 at 15:34:36 Talk to your insurance agent. You will most likely have to insure the car under Facility insurance (the same expensive type that people who have horrendous driving records and / or DUI convictions need to get. Many companies do not provide this so you may need to call around to a few different agents. It is important to be clear that this is a rally car and used for competition and has been modified. In my case, the insurance company wanted an appraisal in order to set the value of the car. This will run you a couple hundred dollars or so and the insurance may be in the 3 - 5 thousand dollar range depending on the appraisal value. Hope this helps |
|
Title: Re: How does insurance work... does it? Post by bobjim on 08/09/11 at 19:20:07 Perhaps it would be helpful for an organizer to confirm what is covered by event insurance which each competitor pays for as part of the entry fee - where that coverage applies and where it does not. In terms of coverage away from events, insurance varies from province to province. In Ontario there are potential serious consequences of not following the laws and regulations. Those could include: - no insurance coverage when you have a claim on your rally car - very large fines - refusal of all insurance companies to provide you any insurance in the future for any of your cars I have heard of a very recent accident where a rally car sustained significant damage while returning from an event - the accident was totally unrelated to the rally otherwise. I understand the owner of the rally car was told that he had no insurance as modifcations had been made to the car and they had not been reported to the insurance company. Dave's method outlined above appears to overcome the last point and as he indicates and as far as I know that sort of coverage is only available through Facility which as he also indicates is usually horribly expensive - probably in the range of twice the cost of regular insurance on the same vehicle. But what are the risks and potential costs of not being insurred - not only to the car owner and driver but to the sport itself? |
|
Title: Re: How does insurance work... does it? Post by rosswood on 08/09/11 at 20:18:13 The insurance coverage for rallies under the Canadian Association of Rallysport is provided through ASN Canada. Details of the coverage can be found on the ASN website under insurance. You can see the details at www.asncanada.com Bottom line is that the rally insurance provides third party liability coverage during an event, but not on transits, as it is assumed that the vehicle owner will have regular road coverage. The rally insurance provides no coverage for the competitor's vehicle. Rally car insurance is an extremely complicated and muddy issue. Different competitors have very different ways of dealing with it. Many are unwilling to discuss it in an open forum. I would caution you re discussing it with your agent before you have the full picture. CARS and RSO (and other motorsport governing groups in Canada) have tried unsuccessfully for years to arrange group insurance coverage for rallyists. There is another discussion going on currently with no concrete results so far. So my best advice is to get in direct contact offline with some owners of rally cars. |
|
Title: Re: How does insurance work... does it? Post by DaveM on 08/10/11 at 23:41:52 bobjim wrote on 08/09/11 at 19:20:07:
Yes, it is expensive but you need insurance to be legal on the roads for the transits. I investigated when I was putting my car on the road and was given good information from Four Star. I can give you the name of the broker that I deal with and the appraiser. PM me if you want more info. |
|
Title: Re: How does insurance work... does it? Post by Jeff_Hagan on 08/17/11 at 10:44:25 DaveM wrote on 08/09/11 at 15:34:36:
I think I know where you're coming from, Dave, but since the term "Facility" often gets thrown around as some vague solution to all sorts of insurance woes, I think it's worth expanding for Doom (or others): Facility doesn't offer some different, special kind of insurance. All auto insurance policies in Ontario have the exact same wording; it's mandated by law and can't be changed by the insurance company. Facility is just the insurer of last resort: because auto insurance is mandatory in Ontario, there has to be a way for every driver to actually get it. The Facility Association is the government-mandated method of making sure that everyone does have a way to get insurance. Even if other insurance companies turn you down (which they might, especially if they just don't feel like insuring a modified car), Facility will still cover you. They may charge you a lot for that coverage, but they won't turn you away. However, the actual policy from Facility is exactly the same as the policy offered by anyone else. So... if your problem is that your normal insurer doesn't want to insure your rally car at all, yes, Facility may provide a solution (at a cost). However, if you're trying to decide between Facility and some other insurer for your rally car and think that Facility's coverage/policy is "better" for rallying in some way, it probably isn't. |
|
Title: Re: How does insurance work... does it? Post by DaveM on 08/17/11 at 13:55:45 Thanks for the clarification, Jeff. I didn't mean to imply that it was better, but rather to be up front and straight with your agent so that they understand. It is conceivable that an agent may write up your policy without actually documenting mod's and eventual use. And then when you have a claim, God forbid, the insurance company may leave you swinging in the wind. |
|
Title: Re: How does insurance work... does it? Post by Donal Crooke on 08/24/11 at 07:20:21 Hi Guys, by way of introduction... hey!! Probably met most of you guys at the rallies but just joined the club! I dont want to take away from Dooms original question but the whole rally car insurance thing is a huge issue over here. i moved here from Ireland a while ago, I done alot of tarmac rallying back there. I never had my rally car insured - the event you entered had blanket insurance to allow all rally cars who had entered to drive on the road for that day only. It was always mentioned at the start of a rally if you are stopped by police etc the insurance policy document was posted in the rally HQ. Its a huge issue here. I would go rallying here tomorrow but i just cannot justify the insurance cost to drive on the public road maybe 4 days in the year. With a relatively new G licence and no canadian record trying to insure a car with cage / modified etc.... going to be looking at 4k. Its a crazy expensive for competitors. I understand work is going on with CARS on this issue? the law from Europe / Ireland to here around blanket insurance couldnt be that different to prevent such a type of insurance? Even if it was $100 added to entry fees for each competitor i'd gladly pay that - maybe some insurance company out there would want the contract. I really hope something can be done on this - as its putting me and probably others off rallying here. Massive start up costs not helped by a 4k insurance bill. Has anyone a contact in CARS i could follow up with? I have plenty of contacts in Ireland who run rallyies and know how it works if that information would help? Last question - is there a way around it? if you had a very dedicated servcie crew who met you at the end of each stage and trailered the car to the next stage - is this legal? i guess not always possible. talk to you guys soon D |
|
Title: Re: How does insurance work... does it? Post by Jeff_Hagan on 08/24/11 at 08:53:56 donalcrookerallying wrote on 08/24/11 at 07:20:21:
The current CARS rules wouldn't allow this: Quote:
I suppose rules can be changed, but speaking for myself, I'd hate to see it come to that. It'd go against the whole history of rallying and (IMO) a big part of what makes it special. |
|
Title: Re: How does insurance work... does it? Post by Donal Crooke on 08/24/11 at 09:24:11 Hey Jeff, Of course doh!! Stupid question on my behalf! :) recently was wracking my mind of ways to get around the 4k insurance bill which i just cant afford or stomach. there is another scheme in Ireland, IRDS (Irish rally drivers scheme) this is another insurance (only $30) you pay at the start of every year and its a fund/insurance to help with medical expenses in case of injury etc, but this is a different topic - but perhaps the two could be incorporated? I could get some details of what the policies look like - i was on the organisation comittee of a few rallys at home - but Im sure CARS have already looked into this. Really hope this can change - theres no reason why it can happen in Europe and cant here. Ireland law also states every car must be insured if on the public road - but this blanket/event insurance satisfies that requirment somehow. |
|
Title: Re: How does insurance work... does it? Post by Jeff_Hagan on 08/24/11 at 10:10:39 donalcrookerallying wrote on 08/24/11 at 09:24:11:
One quirk about insurance in Ontario is that every automobile policy sold must be the government-mandated standard policy. The overall event policy wouldn't be able to satisfy this. No matter what, it's going to have extra stuff in it, and insurers aren't allowed to deviate from the standard policy at all. Beyond that, I think it may just be an issue of critical mass: one big difference between Ireland and Ontario is that there are nowhere near as many rally competitors here, so there's less of a prospective customer base. People have tried to set up some sort of co-op arrangement for this sort of insurance before, but it seems that people's experience so far is that they can't justify the effort to set it up for the small number of policies they could expect to issue. ... which isn't to say that it can't be done. Maybe someone who knows more about insurance than I do can figure out a good way to create a rally-friendly insurance program. It just seems that the attempts so far have run into difficulty. But as long as it works once, that's enough. ;) I guess the answer to all of this is just to get so many people rallying that we represent so much revenue that no insurance company would turn us away. It'll be easy to sort out insurance at that point. Simple, right? ;D |
|
Title: Re: How does insurance work... does it? Post by 2000 Impreza on 08/24/11 at 14:08:49 I have talked to every insurance company I can think of and no one will cover me for a rally car... I cant believe that every person that rallies in Ontario does it illegally (Unless everyone is using Facility insurance). However I assume that must not be the case if none of the active rally drivers on this board have chimed in to say who insures them and how. I found a few topics on specialstage and no one there seemed to have a clear answer on how they insure there cars... Im going nuts trying to figure it out! |
|
Title: Re: How does insurance work... does it? Post by SuzukiSwiftGT on 08/24/11 at 18:00:28 Jeff_Hagan wrote on 08/24/11 at 10:10:39:
I see a chicken vs. egg conundrum in the works. haha But seriously. The insruance really does it for me. Its the thing that always keeps my dream of rallying as just that, a dream. I have seen several affordable built rally cars come and go for sale but I always have to pass because of the insurance thing. Im a driver through and through. Probably not a great one. Very likely, not even a good one. But I dont feel at home in the right seat. But still, the insurance issue has made it clear to me that if i want direct invovlement with rallying, i have to codrive. Shame really. Insurane is such a necessary evil. to take all my money based on the fact that im a young male with a honda is bad enough. but to deny me my dream. for shame insurance. for shame. :'( haha. |
|
Title: Re: How does insurance work... does it? Post by BryceB on 08/25/11 at 16:06:07 Lots of good advice here and I can only echo it - there are different alternatives in use by different people who might not want to discuss them on a public board, that you should talk to brokers who are not yours first lest this question come back to bite you, that you will probably need to find a broker that provides Facility coverage, and that you will probably need an appraisal. Oh, and that if you aren't up front about what modifications have been made then you may be declined coverage - not such a big deal if it's you in a tree and you aren't going to claim it - I have NO idea what actually making a claim would do or what a hell that would become, although maybe someone else does? - but it may be if someone hits you on a transit. I'm not saying, I'm just saying. In our case I spoke to a number of shops and race associations as well as competators to get ideas/names, made a lot of phone calls to a lot of brokers (and if you think explaining what a rally car is and what it does is difficult, try also explaining what a Lada is), and eventually I found one who'd heard of rally. I already had a appraiser, and now I just accept whatever rate hikes they choose to apply each year and I'm happy to have the insurance. The cost is roughly twice what my street car costs to insure, if that helps you ballpark it. As the Lada is Production Sport I did try to make the case that it had not been modified for performance, only for safety, but all that got me was a "nice try". ;) |
|
Title: Re: How does insurance work... does it? Post by Juggernaut Motorsports on 09/02/11 at 13:44:49 Hey being an active rally driver like Bryce above, I'll also chime in. Facility insurance is the way to go not because of increased coverage but because of the transparency of the whole deal. My rally car is insured as it sits as a race car. They will require an official appraisal from a registered/licensed appraiser which is around $200. This will document the car in multiple photos with all modifications included. That package will then get sent to your company as well as to yourself. Then they will charge you roughly twice what you pay for your street car assuming you have zero tickets/violations. For myself personally I pay somewhat less than double. There's no other way to guarantee insurance coverage in the result of an incident on transit. Otherwise you run the risk of them showing up and saying well this is a race car and this is not the car we insured based on what was disclosed to us. As for what it would do to the sport...that's another discussion. That's my understanding of it at least. I've been rallying guilt free from the get go and plan to keep it that way. |
|
Title: Re: How does insurance work... does it? Post by Robert Roaldi on 09/05/11 at 06:41:11 I've always found this side of motor sports competition fascinating. And I've always wondered, since insurance rates are based (partly) on statistical experience, what is the real-world experience of people engaged in motor sports? Do they make more claims? Do they cost the insurance companies more money? Is the rate structure based on facts? I used to know insurance industry insiders but don't anymore, so can't answer the questions myself. You'd think that by now, someone somewhere would have gotten hold of real data and analyzed it. It's always struck me as ironic to hear about all these insurance complications and then see Formula One cars sponsored by insurance companies. |
|
MLRC Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.2.3! YaBB © 2000-2008. All Rights Reserved. |