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Message started by Pat on 10/22/12 at 14:35:16

Title: To all gr2 competitor
Post by Pat on 10/22/12 at 14:35:16

Hi as you may already know they have a change class rules in the air for 2013 CRC. In that rules change Gr2 and Gr5 cars will be combining to create 2WD open. They have a big argument on another forum on the 32 mm restrictor ask for Gr5 since it's a major cost issued to installed such a restrictor. Lot of gr5 competitor speaks but no Gr2. I would like to know how Gr2 competitor feels by that announce and if you are concern about gr5 car does not have a turbo restrictor in the same class then you guise. The major argument is that whatever which power you got in 2wdyou can’t put it on the ground any way so Turbo is not really an advantage over NA motor. Honestly we all get beat By Peter, Zedril, Dubé, Vincent, McNelly ect… and they are all Gr2 cars. Fern may correct me if I’m wrong.

I personally will not judging anyone way of thinking. My goal is not to create a big debate but more try to know what GR2 competitor thing (Peter K, John Stack, Paul, Gary, Andrew, Alex and all other). If you prefer to answer me by email I will assure you that your answer will be keep confidential.

Personally I use to drive Gr2 car couple years ago. Now I convert the same car on a Turbo Gr 5 car. Back In time I was thinking that Gr5 have a big advantage over my little Gr2 but since I drive that turbo engine I’m slower than before. I don’t know why. Mabe I'm to old...

I honestly don’t know what to thing about all that and I would like to hear the other side of the story before make my own idea of all that.
Regard
Pat
patrainvil ''at'' hotmail ''dot'' com

Title: Re: To all gr2 competitor
Post by Alexei S on 10/23/12 at 09:08:11

My gut feeling initially is I didn't like being grouped in with G5 cars. The Swift is not exactly a very powerful car, and going up against Martin, Lance and yourself Pat didn't feel very fair to me.

However, I haven't complained officially about it because I feel I don't have a leg to stand on. I'm still at least 5 - 6% slower than Peter K was in the Swift at GCFR in the same, if not better car (i.e. dog box). And Peter K used to trade times with Martin Walter, sans restrictor.

My feeling is if former G5 cars are allowed to run next year without restrictor and it is re-evaluated at the end of 2013, I'd support that. HOWEVER, if the former G5 cars start running away with it I'd request to have the restrictor added back in. Either that or I'd get a G5 car instead ;)

The other feeling I have is that it's too cheap for a G5 car to make optimal horsepower whereas achieving that same HP in a G2 car is far more expensive. Maybe with some G2 cars this will be easier with the newer higher displacement limits, but for most cars it won't be feasible anyways. I doubt anyone can find a 3L NA engine to cram into a Golf or Focus without spending $$$.

I think for the top end G2 cars vs G5 cars, the performance will be so similar it won't matter. Where it will matter more is for the less powerful G2 cars. What I do know is that for next year, I've accepted I'll probably now be close to last in 2WD in every single event unless I can pull some courage out of my ass and stop worrying about crashing, which isn't likely to happen.

Title: Re: To all gr2 competitor
Post by Do_It_Sidewayz on 10/23/12 at 09:30:19

Pat,

Are you able to get some views from the Quebec 2wd contingent?

Quebec has a good population of Grp2 cars, and I suspect they might have something to say.

Title: Re: To all gr2 competitor
Post by J.Strack on 10/23/12 at 09:35:21

I am quite fine with the Grp2 and Grp 5 cars competing in the same class.
If I wanted to compete in a series where all the cars are the same, I would have got into stock cars. I look at it as a welcome challenge.
Plus, it also gives me an excuse when im slow ;).

Now I just need to actually start racing again.
laterdays
JS

Title: Re: To all gr2 competitor
Post by Pat on 10/23/12 at 10:56:45

Alex, John Thanks to start comment on the tread, I hope other will follow.

Chris, I will try to colect info on quebec side either.

Regard

Title: Re: To all gr2 competitor
Post by Anthony_T on 10/23/12 at 21:48:01

For myself, I think it's more about talent and practice then anything else (both of which I lack at the moment, unfortunately). As long as my car is eligible somewhere, I'll be content.

Anthony

Title: Re: To all gr2 competitor
Post by Anthony_T on 10/23/12 at 21:56:52

Actually - to add to my previous comment... I am more concerned with keeping overall cost of entering events affordable (entry fees, 1 day vs. 2 day events) than with the cost associated with upgrading the car to be competitive at the top of its class.

Title: Re: To all gr2 competitor
Post by overthehill on 10/24/12 at 13:24:15

I was always for one 2WD class. But, then again, I am not exactly the fastest guy...and I never wanted to win Ontario/Canada championship in a class of one car.

However, there is also the argument that without winning, some competitors might quit and perhaps there is something to it?

For me the Production & Open classes 2WD and 4WD make a lot of sense. What does not make any sense to me is allowing ANY changes to production class. Production should be strictly homologated class thus keeping the competition in the realm of "drivers only" effort. Once we start allowing bigger brakes, different transmissions etc, we are moving the competition away from driver focused and cheap alternative. It should also be policed pretty strictly so no one thinks about cheating in the production class.

Furthermore, could there be also another "sweep all" class for historical cars and oddities - say from Trabant to WRC spec car?

But as for combining G2 and G5 - I am all for it. The more cars of my class I can pull out of the ditch, the better. :P

Paul

Title: Re: To all gr2 competitor
Post by robin on 10/24/12 at 16:12:05

I was really excited to see CARS finally go to a smaller number of classes - and then I read the restrictor rule for Group 5... one step forward, two steps back. If it really is about driving (and it is) stop monkeying with all this bullshit handicapping. Handicapping that is so much frustrating conjecture it's maddening. Let's get people competing in two-wheel-drive cars first. We've never had a sample big enough to draw conclusions about any of the arguments.

PeteyK posted a video somewhere (his FB maybe?) showing my old Group5 Golf - now Lance's, in a drag race against John's (now Peter's) Group2 Golf. Lance's car is the configuration I saw listed on one of the other forums as the "we don't want people showing up with one of those - it'll kill everything!": a MkII Golf with a 1.8T The motor is stock, with stock turbo, no restrictor, front mount intercooler, Stage 1 chip - peak boost ~20psi - it goes without saying that the car is very light.
The (heavier MkIII) Group2 car wins the drag race - go look for the video.

Restrictors are dumb. They lead to the expenditure of money and tiny power bands from 4800 to 5400 rpm.

Loosen the entry requirements to 2WD - get people competing. Gather actual data. And then, if the data actually supports it, worry about handicapping (a limit to the number of tires or other ideas)

Robin

Title: Re: To all gr2 competitor
Post by Dave Cotie on 10/24/12 at 18:25:02

robin wrote on 10/24/12 at 16:12:05:

Robin - Thank you - I don't think it could be said much better than that!

Title: Re: To all gr2 competitor
Post by DaveM on 10/24/12 at 22:02:10

Dave Cotie wrote on 10/24/12 at 18:25:02:

Robin - Thank you - I don't think it could be said much better than that!

I agree!

However, can everyone please pass your comments on to CARS via email so that your voices are heard as well. I get the impression (from the discussion on Special Stage) that there are Grp 5 competitors asking to drop the restrictors and restrictions but there are only a very few Grp 2 competitors commenting and they are in favour of the restrictions.

Title: Re: To all gr2 competitor
Post by Alexei S on 10/25/12 at 08:59:35

robin wrote on 10/24/12 at 16:12:05:

PeteyK posted a video somewhere (his FB maybe?) showing my old Group5 Golf - now Lance's, in a drag race against John's (now Peter's) Group2 Golf. Lance's car is the configuration I saw listed on one of the other forums as the "we don't want people showing up with one of those - it'll kill everything!": a MkII Golf with a 1.8T The motor is stock, with stock turbo, no restrictor, front mount intercooler, Stage 1 chip - peak boost ~20psi - it goes without saying that the car is very light.
The (heavier MkIII) Group2 car wins the drag race - go look for the video.

That engine is exactly the issue though that I was saying with G5 vs G2. That G2 engine made more power than the G5, but from what I know is also a very expensive one compared to the 1.8T. I won't speak for Petey, but repairing that engine when it grenaded can't be cheap.

Regardless, I'll email CARS with my opinion that for 2013 we should allow G5 cars to run without restrictor and re-evaluate them later in the year.

Title: Re: To all gr2 competitor
Post by robin on 10/26/12 at 06:21:09

Alexei S wrote on 10/25/12 at 08:59:35:

That engine is exactly the issue though that I was saying with G5 vs G2. That G2 engine made more power than the G5, but from what I know is also a very expensive one compared to the 1.8T.

Exactly. I remember reading a quote from John somewhere that the engine could be built for 'less than $10K'. I know for a fact that the 1.8T configuration of Lance's car can be achieved for between $2500 and $3000 installed (and if anybody is interested, we have the parts handy and Peter would be happy to do this ;-) )

So, IMO the questions become:
1) how much money do competitors want to spend getting to the 2WD traction limit?
2) how much money do competitors want to spend on rebuilds?
3) how do the answers to #1 and #2 impact the number of competitors coming out to play?

(those were all rhetorical questions)

rules rules rules - but where are the 2WD competitors?

Robin

Title: Re: To all gr2 competitor
Post by maloi on 10/27/12 at 19:12:55

hi guys G2 G5 for me, turbo or not my crazy original 1983 (V.W) rabbit. In some events espacially tall pines my awesome car sometimes went fast than some four wheel drive what i am trying to get at is it doesnt depend on the car you have it depends on whos driving it and we all go up there to do the thing we love which is race so lets just go up there and have some fun :) ;D

Title: Re: To all gr2 competitor
Post by Juggernaut Motorsports on 10/28/12 at 11:51:48

Well to start I love love love Robins comments. There really aren't any quantifiable grounds for adding a restrictor other than a thought experiment and fear mongering. I really don't feel that high power 2wd cars need a restrictor; it's basically their tire size, gearing and loud pedal anyways.

It certainly is an added cost as there is a specific way to make a restrictor to get the best power and it's not the same price as a cup of coffee. Let's keep the costs of being competitive with the big boys and girls in open class.

As for Gr.2/Gr.5 as I see it now there are basically unprepared cars with minor or moderate bolt ons with maybe some gearing changes and then the all out prepared high compression NA engines or massaged turbo engines. It does seem that with more power you need to pay a lot more attention to your gearing; again drastically increasing costs for most cars which don't have a simple and cheap solution. As I see it though we almost have 2 classes inside of group 2 alone.

As for building an engine, it's pretty cheap for us Focus guys but then I'd be addicted to race gas, especially if a spec. fuel rule pops up in the next little bit. E85 would be preferred.

Andrew

Title: Re: To all gr2 competitor
Post by peteski on 10/29/12 at 19:53:52

Hey fellow gearheads,

The way I look at it, the more the merrier. Lets get competitors involved with all sorts of cars, increase the level of competition and then re-asses. Simplicity sells in this case.

I dont mind racing against others with boosted/unrestricted race cars in 2wd. I am fuelled by competition and I am sure others are too. Both classes (gr2/5) have their advantages but there is no substitute for seat time. I'll never complain about power until I can drive as fast as Frank Sprongl in that underpowered Swift.

and yes the Burton Snowboards 1.8T MkII is quite fast but the powerband is shaped like a mountain.

cheerio,
PK

Title: Re: To all gr2 competitor
Post by Pat on 11/01/12 at 10:19:00

15 2WD entry so far for Tall Pine. Who esle plan to register? Peter, Lance, Johnatan...
sent your entry and come show CARS board how 2WD class can give an good show.

Title: Re: To all gr2 competitor
Post by Wedge on 11/01/12 at 11:18:27

I was at Tall Pines one year, I forget which year. It was a very snowy year though. I was racing down West Eels in the pitch black night without any lights. Just doing the best I could. Eventually I was caught by a well prepped WRX with massive headlights from behind. I let him pass, cause I'm good like that. But with him in front of me, I could see everything from his headlights, and I was able to easily match his pace. Eventually he pulled over and let me pass. Once I was in front of him, I actually started pulling away from him. Just up until I got far enough ahead that I lost his headlights. Then I obviously slowed down again. Finally I let him in front, and I just stayed on his tail until the finish.
He was in a fully prepped WRX, in the snow. I wasn't even in a Gr2 car, I was in a P2 car.

The point is that at our level of this sport, performance is at least 80% driver, and just 20% car. So no matter how they choose to class the cars isn't going to change much. Everyone is going to finish exactly where they would have before. The only thing that's changed by reducing the number of classes, is they are reducing the number of class winners. It's easier on event organisers who no longer have to wonder how many trophies to buy. But if they want to reduce competitor costs with the new class structure, I don't think they will accomplish that (see my post on special stage).

Title: Re: To all gr2 competitor
Post by Pat on 11/11/12 at 07:29:21

Hi folks, after received a lot of comment verbally I can now told you that a majority of gr2 competitor felt unfair that Gr5 cars with out a restrictor might be match on the same group then their gr2 cars. The majority will accept to be match with restrictor turbo car for the health of a two wheel drive class but lot still thing that even with a restrictor a turbo car still have an unfair advantage. All of them though agree that is VERY sad to see some existing cars to be push out of the 2wd open class due of their high engine volume, ie srt4, 2.4 mitshubishi turbo, 280z ...

Personaly I will instal a 32mm restrictor in my car for 2013 and will be a proud 2wd open competitor for next year.

Ho yes I almost forget, Even the Quebec championship have just accept to modified their rule for match 2wd open CARS class for the John Nicol cup.

I know some will not agree with other thinking but remember that was just a personal survey to found wath competitor was really thing of all that.

Regard