Let's get some feedback from Novices.

If you've been rallying for more than 2 years, please do not respond to this post.

Here are some ideas.  Let's see what the novices think.


1. Practice sessions


Lots of seat time in a non-competitive setting

    Personally I don't see why everything has to be a competition.

Just driving Salmon lake road, etc. at the speed limit without sliding around corners would be totally beneficial.  

Getting used to gravel, grip levels, crests, apexes - Lots to learn at even WAY BELOW THE SPEED LIMIT.

I learned so much at Lanark and that was on open roads.

One of the things I learned from Frank, is that very little pendulum turns are needed and to concentrate on the racing line.

So, on an open road, you can't go on the left side, that just makes the corner tighter.

Lets organize some practice sessions.


2.  Mini-rally practice session,  tulip instrutions only.

Saturday nights on more challenging roads in non-summer months.

Monday nights is tough, as you're just waiting to leave because you have to go to work the next day.

Also, in the summer,  you're compting with vacation, cottaging, boating, etc.

Why not run mini-rallies in the fall and winter when the weather is crap, the roads more challenging, there is alot less road traffic.  And there are alot less other events to compete for your time.

You can start the event earlier, say 5:00 and run to 11:00 pm.  That's 6 hours of seat time!!.  And you have time to get to fun roads like Salmon lake, etc.

John Buffum's winter drivex uses some non-manned checkpoints.   We could do the same.  Just write down your own time at the checkpoint.  No volunteers needed.  Very easy to organize.

It's not a competition, so no tempation to speed.
If you cheat at the checkpoint, you're just cheating yourself because you'll want to compare times the next time you are out.


3.  Winter rally school

I've already shown it can work and there is lot's of interest

4.  Recce pratice sessions

I've been giving private instruction to people interested in performance driving.

Although I'm a novice, having competed my first year in performance rallying, I still know more than anyone who has never done it before.

The feedback has been phenominal.

Pick a twisty road  road and practice:

timing calculations
time controls
writing notes
two pass recce
practice reading notes, timing, etc. for the co-driver
practice listening to notes for the driver

All at below legal speed limits and while adhering to highway traffic act. i,e, no rally style turns etc.

OK, so you can't pratice the rally driving aspect, but you pratice everything else involved in a performance rally.

I've already proved this works and novices are very interested and that this is very beneficial.

I learned the hard way, that the starting line is not the place to learn co-driving at probably $1,000/hr of seat time.

Co-drivers should be totally comfortable with all aspects of performance rallying before getting to a performance rally.  Practice at $6.00/hr of seat time instead of $1,000/hr of seat time.


5  Putting it all together:  Peformance TSD at performance rallyies.


Practice the co-driving and rally driving at lower speeds

The performance TSD was a cheap way to experience entry level performance rallying.

I'm told it will never happen again.  Too bad.

You could double or tripple car counts at every performance rally.


Galway - already proved it can work

Tall Pines - do hastings and west eel creek, ( the smooth stages suited for stock suspensions), but reduce CAS to 50 - i.e. VERY SAFE

Black Bear - pine springs only, suited to stock suspension


6  Mock performance rally

run a rally-X as a performance rally


So what do the novices think?

Ideas about ways in which we can improve rally events of all sorts should be brought to our club meetings (open to all).   This way the ideas can be discussed in a serious way and and put to action in a manner where everyone benefits.  

If one is really serious about making a difference to rally in general and the club specifically,  there is no substitute to getting informed by attending club meetings.

Mt fault guys...
I was charging Fred a grand an hour to ride around in my porsche...

Fred, stop wasting time posting stuff on MLRC and weld the cage in that WRX..

My son and I sarted new into the Rally world last year at the OWR helping(?) at a checkpoint. We ended the season at Targa Newfoundland (won a silver plate). Of all the events and learning opportunities we had the TSD at Cavendish was without a doubt the most beneficial (and fun). While performance rally is a goal, we are in no big rush to get there. The events that MLRC and other clubs offer gives us lots to learn and hopefuly improve. Everyone we have met or been involved with has been fantastic, and very helpful. We sincerely appreciate all the time and effort that is put in by the volunteer organization to provide such great driving experiences in a completely safe environment.

<<Proper safety equipment is needed to run at those speeds. >>

"At those speeds"????  The maximum CAS we were given in the TSD division was 76.2km/hr.  We got greater penalties for averaging above CAS than for below CAS.  Most of us had to slow way down to avoid these penalties, meaning that we were not driving "all out" to meet CAS.  
As to the "intolerable delay" that having a TSD division caused to those poor performance people:  there were 4 cars.  At two minutes apart that would be 8 extra minutes delay.  As someone else here said, if the goal to get more performance entrants were ever achieved, there would be more cars there too.  darn, more delay.   Don't you just hate growth.
--Rita

prmoore wrote on 03/19/7 at 10:09:20:


Well 76.2 is an interesting number, but what does it tell us:

1) 76.2km/h has you finishing 11/21 finishers (6m39s) on SS1 of the performance event - you know, the event with the cages etc.

2) One competitor scored a couple of 3E - that puts him 8/21 finishers - the meat in an Open class sandwich

3) you scored 10 points - all early, no late (to be fair, you zeroed a lot - obviously making an attempt to do so), another competitor scored 15 points (14 of them early), another scored 28 (14 early) and the last competitor scored 34 points - all early.

All this, as you say, with you guys having to "slow way down to avoid these penalties" (how fast were you going?)

I recall from the second growth meeting that the goal of including the TSD competitors was so that they could see "a real rally road" and be involved in a performance event -- general acclimatization if you will.

I made my observation - not of some number (76.2) but from the side of the stage after rolling on SS1 (there are witnesses to my comments at that time) - and before that being involved in perf. rally competition for quite a while - a while that, much to my chagrin, is characterized by a few offs - some of them pretty big.  

No offense, but relying on the impressions of the people behind the wheel might not be the best way to go - things have a way of slowing down when you start to go fast.

As I said, in my opinion it was dangerous.



prmoore wrote on 03/19/7 at 10:09:20:


As I said, I wasn't one of those people - apparently Jaak wasn't either (in fact I heard no complaints at the SS1/SS2 turn-around).  I don't hate growth - I love it.  But watch what happens to growth if something happens when we're pushing the safety envelope or when someone who  isn't a stakeholder in 'this thing of ours' comes along and says "screw the TSD points - I wanna go fast!"

Robin

(sorry to be throwing your thread so far into space Fred)

Fred,

I'm only going to comment on points 5 and 6.

5 - No one is saying the organizers don't like it.  What we are saying is that it adds complication.  Complication to an already difficult task of balancing time lines, day light, service, etc.   That being said GCFR ran a TSD with there Performance event and we learned a lot. Will GCFR run the same this year? Probably not.  Will they run a TSD group as well?  That for PMSC to decide.  Will MLRC run a TSD with BBR? No, our time line right now is too tight and we are way too short of workers.

6 - Doubling the car count does not half the cost per ralliest.  Events pay a per car insurance levy (most of the entry fee), plus a per car road damage levy for performance events.  This is the way we balance the insurance cost out.  If GCFR had to pay the full insurance cost in 05 they would have lost their shirt.  If BBR had to pay the full insurance cost in 06 we would have lost our shirt.  These levy's are totaled at the end of the year by CARS and RSO and the per car levy's are then adjusted accordingly for the next year  Allowing for events to survive  dips in entries.

Again coming to meetings and asking questions will help here.  A lot of the things we do, are done for very practical reasons

Bryn
Speaking as john Q rally enthusiast.

I want to comment on the TSD aspect of Galway and novice events.

1)  In principle I think that having a TSD event on a closed road is an interesting idea and I would jumped all over that if I was still competing in TSD rallies.  From my experience at Galway this year I did not see it as affecting the performance competition in an unacceptable way (in fact, I found the social aspect at the turnaround quite enjoyable).

However...
2)  Rightly or wrongly, beginners rely  much more on the experience of the organizers in determining what circumstances are safe to run without safety equipment.  For this reason I think that safety needs to be the top concern when it is open to novice competitors using cars without safety equipment.  When people get hurt, any growth in the sport will be nullified by those that retire from competition as a result of losing faith that organizers always have the competitor's safety in mind when designing events.  

As for running Close Course TSD as a stand alone or as part of a performance rally, that is discussion best had at a club meeting (hint, hint, nudge, nudge) as there are several logistical "pros" and "cons" that are event specific.