Again, Hijacking the thread - Sorry Fred, and also not being a beginner (I've not been too active the past year but I have been down a rally road or two).

So many people make the assumption the growth is good.  Often growth is the measure of success.  If we hung two pedofiles last year and 4 this year then we have growth.  That is good.  Did we have 100% growth or 50% growth?  I can make a case for both.

My main point - forgive the attempt at lighteneing the situation - I don't believe that we can assume growth is always good.  There comes a critical time when just one more (competitor, event, meeting, person, whatever) causes the need for a complete reorganization.
Take insurance for an example:  A 40 km event costs x dollars.  Add 8 km. - still x dollars.  Go to 51 km and the insurance goes to 1.5x.
That cost is added on to entry fees.  So a 49,9 km event entry is $325  and a 52 km event is 425.  Those last 2.1 km cost a lot of coin.
Adding just 10 competitors to an event adds considerably more than just 10 minutes at each turn-around.  Sweep is more than likely delayed by increased extraction.  Work load is magnified for registrars and scrutineers.  Banquet hall facilities - especially in rural areas are stretched.  GCFR is at the limit in that respect.
When we ask for growth do we mean more car count? more events? more "profits?"
Rob has plans this year for GCFR to grow in length and time.  That means overnight accommodation for crews and workers, addition fuel and tire expense, lighting requirements increased entry fees.  Sometimes those elements of growth are not universally welcomed.
I'm not saying that growth is bad but I am cautioning that growth is not without issues that should be considered.
Cheers,
pw

dtompsett wrote on 03/19/7 at 14:17:42:

Because landowners and townships get very pissed off if people go bombing around stage roads.  Then road permissions are denied.  Then stages are cancelled.  And events disappear.

Road permissions are very hard to get, and very easy to lose.

Hey guys, I'm fairly new to rally and I like the ideas that Fred is suggesting. I do think you all should try to work things out a bit better, and I dunno if over the forums is the best place to do it. Even the phone would be better.

So to respond to the topics question, this is what I have to say. My car is not caged, and it won't be anytime soon as I'm still paying for it. But I don't mind driving it hard down gravel roads. I for one, do NOT find NavX events interesting at all. Yes the roads are nice, but I could go on a lovely drive any time I want to. I have a map, and I can find nice roads and put them all together and make a route. I don't need help with that. And I do realize that some people actually like having tricky directions and, getting lost is maybe fun for them. I do NOT like getting turned around and lost. I'd rather go down town Toronto and get lost while try to find a parking spot than get lost while I'm doing a "rally" event. Just my opinion.

I did the Lanark DriveX and LOVED it, even though it wasn't quite challenging enough. Yes yes, I know, its not a performance rally. That was a brisk night jog to me. The biggest scare I had was that big stupid white dog! And I do understand that because the Fast and Furious wanna be's have messed up everything, that now that by-law exists, and DriveX events are gone. That really STINKS.

I went to the Bancroft RallyX and was quite disapointed  at the conditions. I was on the start line, and the Ford Ranger TRUCK that was in front of me came limping up out of the "pit" with a hole in the radiator from a rock. I then questioned why the heck I was about to drive my car into the "pit". What I'm saying is, how are people going to be attracted to an event that should be a baja race. No offence to anyone, I know they are using what they've got, but its way to rough to be fun. Isn't there somewhere else they can run these things so instant ruts don't happen?? Maybe close a backroad somewhere?? I don't have an answer, but theres got to be better than a "pit".

And about the safty issues with novices needing extra help so they don't crash. Although I don't want anyone to get hurt, especially the reputation of the sport, crashing is part of the learning curve. And if you are continually crashing then maybe you shouldn't be driving. Try co-driving instead. Sorry if that sounds mean, but thats how it is. However, I think that we can take a lesson from the Solo guys who, at the begining of the season, hold a school for the beginers and teach them the basics of racing. Fred's idea's of rally schools would be a good start. It should only take a lesson or two from a guy who knows his stuff to teach the beginners how to rally safely.

And one guy said earlier on, about the people running the performance TSD and being quicker that some of the actual competitors in the actuall rally. Well what does that show you? Obviously there are guys who are quite capable of making the jump to Performace Rally, but just can't for some reason (prolly $$$ if I was to guess). So Fred is right to try to help those guys get into performance rally races. Those guys are probably the future of the sport, so why not help them out. Maybe one of them could even represent Canada in the WRC!! So come on guys, lets help each other out here.

We are used to make rules that help the sport, not bend the sport to follow rules. (Leo)

Advice to Novices -

A sport with no rules will not survive.

Of course the rules have to serve  the sport also.

The one message that keeps recurring in all these threads more often than anything else from many different people is that the newcomers are more than welcome to express their ideas,  but that if they want anything to come of them,  they have to learn the appropriate channels for doing so.  Posting a bunch of ideas on a forum generates some good discussion,  but most likely will see very little come of it, especially if they are presented in a critical manner.  It is also very important to check your facts before posting; otherwise you lose all credibility and your great ideas get buried with the rubbish.  Don't let the good ones be wasted like that.  Also keep focused on concepts and never get into personal attacks.

If you want your ideas to happen,  bring them to the club leaders to talk about them.  Some of your ideas are excellent and can be brought into effect;  others will not be possible for reasons that will be explained to you.  For example, after 911 rally in Canada almost died because we were having great difficulty getting insurance for our events.  We were lucky to get it at all,  so it is extremely important to follow the requirements of the insurance policy,  which means following our own rules.   If our rules need changing there is a proper procedure for doing that.  

We went through a very valuable exercise a year or two ago called Growth Meetings.  Everyone was invited to come and talk about what new ideas could be implemented to improve the sport.  Many great ideas came from that. Some of those have been tried already; others are still to be tried, waiting for people to provide some leadership in making them come alive.


But if you want your ideas to happen,  you must also be willing to help make them happen.  This is all being done by volunteers.

I have read all the comments from various people some of whom are very knowledgeable about the sport. Some of whom are lacking some vital history.

I would suggest to all who are really concerned about this sport and its direction to get involved. This Saturday March 24th is the RSO AGM for 2006 how many of you can we expect to be there??

How many of you can we expect to offer themselves for election and be willing to take on the many hours of work that the Executive [like all the club Exec's and Organizers give each year]  It is very easy to be involved for a few months and say everything needs changing. However as many others have advised we have to work within what is permitted by insurance. I know myself I have floated ideas to find that we cannot obtain insurance for them.

Link for AGM notice
http://www.mlrc.ca/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=news;action=display;num=1171902910...

I trust we will see you all there!!

Pete Gulliver

All I can say is if you don't like the way something is being done, run, or not, get off your whiny ass and PARTICIPATE in the club meetings, go to the AGM, attend RSO meetings, write for your newsletter, get elected, help an organiser (in a club sanctioned event), otherwise you're just pissing in the wind.

This rally thing has been a round a LONG time (50 years just in Canada).  The structures built to govern the sport, while never perfect, are there for good reasons, and come from decades of lessons learned.  Going against the system will only get you shut out of it.  Organisers have no tolerance for people they perceive as a risk to their event.  When you act outside of the organisation, you're on your own (e.g. insurance), meanwhile putting at jeapordy the thing you love (rallying).  When you work within the organisation you have a large support network with an established record, sort of useful shuld you need to go to court (and we haven't, because the organisation is setup to avoid exactly that).

I can be pretty whiny sometimes.  But, instead of just bitching and pointing fingers, I got elected, I organised, I attend the meetings, I set policy, rules, made series, etc, all WITHIN the framework.  We resurrected rally in Ottawa after many dead years.  All WITHIN the framework.  

There were notable attendee absenses at the AGM.  It just means you're not serious.

Steve, you had plenty of lates, too, on Lanark, stop bragging.

Craig