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Group 5 changes (Read 7324 times)
big_Ian
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euro trash racing

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Group 5 changes
02/05/13 at 12:47:52
 
I want to get some feed back from competitors in regards to the new rule to exclude Group 5 as it stands (5 cyl max ect)on Cars National events.
the new rule will put my new car, an 82  911 Porsche into open 4wd.I also have
 been building a MK1 escort with a 2 litre turbo Cosworth motor also to do Group 5

I think it would be a loss to the sport to exclude some of these
 interesting cars from competing in 2wd.There is no evidence to support
 a safety concern or performance advantage in having group 5 cars run
 . Just last week at PN the smaller lighter 2wd cars dominated .I dont recall ever hearing a complaint from another 2wd driver when I
 campaigned my 911 in 06 and 07.What we need to do ,in my opinion,is
 open up entries not exclude.

If I land on the overall podium with my 911 at a national I will happily agree
 to putting 6cyl 2wd cars in open 4wd!.
 The fact is no can do it, that's why it would be wrong to make those
 cars compete against open 4wd.

At 100 acre Ive run against v8 cars  and are
 still no match for even ordinary VWs.

send email to fixmy911(aaaattt)gmail.com

thank you



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I might be having too much fun....
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Wedge1
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Re: Group 5 changes
Reply #1 - 02/06/13 at 13:16:43
 
Yeah, somebody was smoking something really good when they came up with the 5-cylinder limitation.

I read somewhere that Ford once tried to build a V-6 engine for their WRC cars.  That didn't last long though.  The non-existent power advantage of the V-6 was insufficient to overcome the signification balance/handling disadvantages.  If they couldn't make it work, then what chance do we have?

Even the official FIA rules allow non-turbo 3.0l V-6's to compete directly against the turbo 4 cylinder engines.  Nobody really does that though, for the aforementioned reason.
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Right now, someone somewhere is practicing, and when you face him, he will beat you.
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robin
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Re: Group 5 changes
Reply #2 - 02/07/13 at 13:40:37
 
I think a lot of people are baffled by the 5cyl vs. 6cyl. thing.  When I made mention that some sort of rationale should be forthcoming from the rules committee, I feel that it was glossed-over with no real answer other than the 'fact' that 6 cyl engines have the ability to make more power than a comparable-displacement 5 cyl.

Given the fact that a six fires typically every 120 degrees (exceptions being some 90 deg V6s derived from V8s using common crank pins and odd-firing at 90 and 150 or semi-even at 108/132)- yes there's more power stroke overlap than a five (144 degrees) - but here's the thing:

- a four cyl fires every 180 degrees and therefore has no power stroke overlap at all - therefore the same argument applies to 5cyl vs. 4 cyl - so why are we allowing 5 cyl cars to run in a class where the majority of engines are 4 cyl?

When I first read this rule, I wondered if somebody was trying to cater to VW.  If so I hope not - do a little digging and I think you'll find that the VW 5cyl won't be here for much longer - in fact they'll be going back to a 4cyl turbo...........

I'm in a similar boat to Ian - just starting a SWB P-Car build.  I have a gorgeous 2.2/2.7 RS-spec race motor on Webers that could bolt-in.  Instead I'm looking at rebuilding a 912 motor - no regret here - two fewer cylinders hanging out behind the rear wheels is a good thing - in theory, but the rule as it stands (also based on....theory) makes it necessary.

The potential power advantage 6 cyl vs. 5 cyl. vs. 4 cyl - bottom line: who cares?  And how did such finite and delicate conjecture lead to the elimination of existing rally cars that are competing today (Trinder, Healey, others?) and somehow favour straight 5's (is anyone running one of these??)

Robin Fleguel  
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Wedge1
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Re: Group 5 changes
Reply #3 - 02/07/13 at 16:48:40
 
robin wrote on 02/07/13 at 13:40:37:
I think a lot of people are baffled by the 5cyl vs. 6cyl. thing.  When I made mention that some sort of rationale should be forthcoming from the rules committee, I feel that it was glossed-over with no real answer other than the 'fact' that 6 cyl engines have the ability to make more power than a comparable-displacement 5 cyl.

Given the fact that a six fires typically every 120 degrees (exceptions being some 90 deg V6s derived from V8s using common crank pins and odd-firing at 90 and 150 or semi-even at 108/132)- yes there's more power stroke overlap than a five (144 degrees) - but here's the thing:
- a four cyl fires every 180 degrees and therefore has no power stroke overlap at all l  


Yes, a V6 will have more power stroke overlap.  But that does not actually translate into power production.  Each individual stroke on a V6 will generate LESS power than a 4 or 5 cyl with the same displacement.  Each cylinder on a 4-cylinder is 50% more powerful than a V6 of the same size.  A little bit of power stroke overlap is not enough to make up for a 50% per cylinder power advantage.  

If you look at it from a high level, on paper the number of cylinders plays absolutely no bearing on the total power output of an engine, because the pros/cons perfectly cancel each other out.  It's the: "No replacement for displacement" rule coming into effect.  In reality every cylinder count has a displacement range where it achieves better efficiency than any other cylinder count.  And that's mostly due to difficulty of controlling the burn in a very large combustion chamber, not to do with power stroke overlap.

V6 engines under 3.0l are actually at a disadvantage to equal displacement 4 cyl, due to the increase in rotational mass/friction/etc.  V6 engines do not become more efficient than 4 or 5 cyl, until you go larger than 3.0l.  Otherwise we would see a ton more 1.8l V6's (à la Mazda MX3) on the market.  But since 3.0l+ engines are already banned, what's the point of banning that extra cylinder?
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Right now, someone somewhere is practicing, and when you face him, he will beat you.
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Do_It_Sidewayz
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Re: Group 5 changes
Reply #4 - 02/07/13 at 23:53:17
 
Guys,

Let me say that these comments are certainly not falling on deaf ears.  

The best thing you can do, is get the comments to the right people (yes...i'm one of them, and thanks to those who have done it already)

This is a topic of on going conversation with the board,  and probably will continue to be.

You all raise good arguments.

One thing, the cars with bigger motors are not "banned" persay and do still have a place to run both Nationally and Regionally in Group 5.  Group 5 will exist until the end of the 2014 season.

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Atlantic Rally Guy
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Re: Group 5 changes
Reply #5 - 02/20/13 at 15:01:00
 
I've thought it quite silly that they thought of going this route.

My past car was PGT, current car is PGT, or P4WD I guess now. Won't go there.

It works fine, but it's not my passion. How about a 325is? How much fun would that be? Or the beloved B21FT in a 242, wonderfully good times. Except they want to ban them effectively.

I see no logical reason to eliminate any vehicle from competition if it's not a safety issue.

Many people rally because they enjoy it. If that enjoyment is a RWD of some unique heritage, your not going to see them in a FWD Fiesta Dog Box 2WD open. I almost guarantee it.
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Peter K.
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Supa fast!!!

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Re: Group 5 changes
Reply #6 - 02/27/13 at 12:05:26
 
robin wrote on 02/07/13 at 13:40:37:
- bottom line: who cares?  And how did such finite and delicate conjecture lead to the elimination of existing rally cars that are competing today (Trinder, Healey, others?) and somehow favour straight 5's (is anyone running one of these??)
 


I totally agree. Rediculous in a sport that is 98% hobbyists. When the sanctioning body can present incentives to abide by the rules then I say yes. I would love to see porsches and Ian's monster Escort competing.

Has anyone generated an unprecedented advantage with the old rules? Nope.

I am sure the rule committee has attempted to look into the future, but you can't shut out current competitors come on.

Speaking of incentives, I am still waiting for the gravel tires I won at Perce Neige in 2012.

PK
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Peter Kocandrle
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RyanHuber
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Re: Group 5 changes
Reply #7 - 02/27/13 at 15:26:16
 
Peter, talk to Terry, I've got mine I won at Pines 2012 already...
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Ryan Huber
VA3AWD
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